If Marciano Was Black???

Back in the day when I felt Rocky was nothing special I also pointed to Charles, Louis, Moore and Walcotts age. Louis WAS a shot fighter there is no doubt. However the other three were great all time talents. You do not see the type of ability you see in these men today.....not even in the same universe. Walcott was a physical marvel. Watch the talent he displays in their bout. Just off the charts. In beating these three men Rocky beat three formidable fighters capable of beating anyone on their best night.

 

It most definitely mattered what color he was.

Ridiculous bull**** ...



Let's see ...

The year is 1978, when a 25 year old Leon Spinks defeated 36+ year old Muhammad Ali while being more than eleven years younger did the black community in the US place Spinks on any kind of pedestal? No, it meant absolutely nothing. A younger man in his prime facing and edging or defeating an older man in decline, in relative decline, or just well past his physical prime is quite possible - unless they are simply no damn good. Obviously it was clear that this was not defeating a prime version of Ali to the black community. And, at the other extreme, no would have bothered to consider what if the roles were reversed and it was a 36 year old Spinks facing a 25 year old Ali. Because the answer would be more than apparent. Spinks would have zero chance as the older man facing the younger Ali.

The year is 1980, when a 30 year old Larry Holmes defeated a nearly 39 year old Muhammad Ali while being nine years younger did the black community in the US place Holmes on any kind of pedestal for that victory? No, it meant nothing because Ali was old. A younger man in his prime facing and edging or defeating an older man in decline, in relative decline, or just well past his physical prime is quite possible - unless they are simply no damn good. Obviously it was clear that that Larry was not defeating a prime version of Ali to the black community. And, at the other extreme, all they had to do was consider what if the roles were reversed and it was a 39 year old Holmes facing a 30 year old Ali. The answer was apparent enough. No one is revered for beating an old version of an athlete in a combat or contact sport in the black community. What is your excuse or explanation? We don't need all that many guesses to pin it down.

The year is 1982, when a 27 year old Trevor Berbick defeated a 40 year old Muhammad Ali while being considerably younger. Did the black community in the US place Berbick on any kind of pedestal for that victory? No, it meant nothing because Ali was old. A younger man in his prime facing and edging or defeating an older man in decline, in relative decline, or just well past his physical prime is quite possible - unless they are simply no damn good. Obviously it was clear that this was not defeating a prime version of Ali to the black community. And, at the other extreme, no would have bothered to consider what if the roles were reversed and it was a 40 year old Berbick facing a 27 year old Ali.

And these examples could go on and on and on ... surely the historians can find more perfect examples to make the point. It is fine to contend that a prime Marciano beating, defeating, or KOing an older or worn ATG is still quite an accomplishment BECAUSE OF THE relative GREATNESS or prior greatness of the defeated. It is fine to state that you feel he had to be the best of the rest at that time because others were unsuccessful at beating these old and/or worn ATGs (at this time). But, to suggest that if Marciano was BLACK that he'd be stood on a mountain top for such wins by those that disagree with you (or by the BLACK community) would mean everyone was as idiotic and bigoted as you. That's simply false.

You think the black community gave prime Tyson a young wrecking ball props for stopping an OLD OLD Larry Holmes? You are out of your fuking mind.

AGE and/or ring wear ALWAYS matters. It can never be overlooked. Well, apparently it can by some .. and the motivations are quite clear ...

 

Walcott was one of the greatest boxers ever to hold the hwt championship. All you need to do is watch him fight. That is IF you know the sport.

Charles fought for years after fighting Marciano. Most that know the sort feel he was an all time great talent.

Again with race. You are a very angry young man. One day hopefully you will wise up.

 

No idea what you are talking about. Spinks was not an ATG talent. His career ending in obscurity.

Berbick was not an ATG talent. He was a top 10 contender with limited ability never demonstrating the qualities of an ATG.

Holmes beating Ali did nothing but cement his claim for the hwt championship. It was the qualities Holmes showed throughout his career that made him an ATG.

Tysons victory beating Holmes meant little in the sceam of history. Tyson COULD have shown ATG qualities but in the end failed IMO and in the opinion of most historians.

ONE victory does not give a champion ATG status. It's taking the fighters career in total that determines this. Marcianos win over Walcott however showed that Rocky had the fortitude to come back in a losing fight after being cut, blinded, hurt to win. He demonstrated the ability to never quit no matter the circumstance that historians look for in order to rate with those from boxing history that did exhibit this attribute.

 

It takes one to know one.:hi:

 

What? When he fought them?

Walcott was the reigning World Heavyweight champion when Marciano stopped him.

Moore was the reigning World Light Heavyweight champion and HE was the number-one heavyweight contender when Marciano stopped him.

Ezzard Charles was the former World Heavyweight (not light heavyweight) Champion who had successfully defended the title eight times (third most all-time at heavyweight to that point) and HE was the number-one heavyweight contender when Marciano stopped him.

And Joe Louis was 11 fights into his comeback and HE was the number-one contender when Marciano stopped him.

Again, any fighter - white or black - who knocked Louis, Charles, Walcott and Moore and retired as undefeated heavyweight champion would be considered an all-time great.

 

So what went wrong with Joe's conditioning in the 16 defeats he suffered before he lost to Marciano?

I honestly can't believe that you are bulling up Marciano because he beat a 39 year old guy with 16 previous defeats. If that happened today with Klitchko people would be up in arms about it. It's 16 years since Klitch fought someone with that many defeats on their resume.

You can spin all you like about Moore and Charles beating the bigger men of the day ( though why you emphasise they beat BLACK men is beyond me ) the reality is those bigger men were either well past it or garbage.:roll::roll:

I can just see it now. Kovalev going up and beating all these guys 200 + until he gets a shot at Klitchko, or Povetkin.

 

I think it's a good topic to be honest. I haven't read the pages of comments yet but I will assume that my take is most likely going to be a bit different. I think that if Marciano was black that he would be viewed as even greater than he is now.

I think he would be seen as one of the best, if not the very best Heavyweight ever... right up there with Ali. People would say that he beat other great black fighters of the day like the Brown Bomber Joe Louis KO8, Jersey Joe Walcott x2 KO13 and KO1, The Cincinnati Cobra Ezzard Charles W15 and KO8, and Archie The Ole Mongoose Moore KO9. They'd talk about how he fvcked up a lot of good white boys too.

He would have been just the 4th black HW Champ and a symbol of black pride... even if he didn't want to be. He'd be a part of black history, maybe a better movie would have been made about him, maybe he'd be on a stamp, and maybe kids would read about him in school.

 

I'm still waiting for the Rocky Marciano movie where he bangs Zsa Zsa Gabor. (Which he did.) :good

 

You are a fantasist.

1. Walcott NEVER held the World Heavyweight Championship.

2. He held a N.B.A. version of it.

3. What has any of it got to do with him being beaten 16 times prior to facing Marciano? That is the pertinent statistic 16 DEFEATS going in. Similarly Moore, 19 defeats, Charles, 11 defeats.

46 defeats from the best 3 of the 5 guys Marciano was in title fights with. I don't even want to discuss La Starza and Co ckell, as they are not worth mentioning tbh.

 

Wow. You are a boxing moron.

Walcott was the lineal hwt champion of the world. You can trace Marcianos win to become the new true hwt champion over Walcott right to Ali's win over Liston. His history of fighting at times where he could not afford to eat is well documented.

Moore was the light hwt champion of the world and like other lt heavyweight champions before him decided to fight as a hwt and he did quite well. When you fight 200 times you have great nights and bad nights. He had LOTS of great nights. Moore like Charles is considered one of boxings all time great talents. There is a LONG history of lt hwt champions fighting for the hwt title.

Charles was the former hwt champion of the world. He is considered one of boxings greatest talents. Again you mention losing a few fights but fail to mention he fought over 100 total bouts.

Your ideas are very superficial. It's OK since I felt exactly the same way before I realized I could not be more wrong. I'll give you twenty years to become knowledgable and I am sure you will come to your senses.

 

Ken Norton.

 

i gotta say, imo Perry just kicked the **** out of Foxy,

by that i mean Foxy came off way more hateful

It was like Perry made Foxy look like a crying baby during that last exchange,,, i actually felt bad for Foxy, he was so over excited with his words he lost control and started to virtually wet himself with his comments. You could feel it leaking out of him even when he was still trying to hold it in. So cute to see the young ones in action.

I feel ashamed for Foxy, i have never even heard of this Perry guy. Foxy is one of our top dingbats here at ESB, i expected more from him.

Please continue with this thread, i am really enjoying how stupid it is.

 

If Marciano was black, Layne, LaStarza. And Matthews would get Quarry, ****ey, Vitali, Morrison, and Tua like love.

 

white or black Rock was a dramatic fighter, he took lots of shots but always found a way to win, thus he is going to get great respect and a bigger aura then normal just for that, he wasn't the fastest, he wasn't the biggest, but he was tough and that always goes a long way, maybe too far, lol, maybe it makes people remember Rock as this invisible dude and that obviously annoys many non fans as they know this is not true.