If Marciano Was Such A Dynamite Puncher?

choklab · Sep 18, 2014

edward morbius said: ↑

I also have a different take on Harry Matthews than the one expressed on this thread--

Matthews was born on 12-9-1922

He turned pro in 1937 and his first loss to was a decision to Jackie Burke (a fighter with a 97-27-21 record at the time) on 1-1-1940. Matthews was just past his 17th birthday.

In 1942, at 19, he defeated and then drew with the former middleweight champion Al Hostak. I think this is quite impressive considering Matthews was still a teenager and as a teenager was in The Ring's top ten at middleweight.

in 1943 he fought and lost to Eddie Booker and Jack Chase, two of the tough black dynamite crew. The fact that he was in the ring with such tough and highly rated fighters before his 21st birthday speaks much about him. Booker at this time was scoring victories over Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall, and Holman Williams. Chase was just as good. I see nothing to really criticize Matthews for here. I question how many fighters at that age could have done better against such opponents.

After three years in the service, Matthews returned to boxing and ran off an unbeaten string of 52 fights with an unbeaten streak of 35 fights (with 28 knockouts) leading into the Marciano fight. Certainly, as with many fighters, there were set-ups, but more than ten of his opponents had or would appear in The Ring's yearly top ten. He made top contender Bob Murphy look inept in his New York debut, but it was Murphy who got the shot at the light heavy title.

Certainly at this point he was a respected fighter, picked by The Ring to replace Robinson as the best all-around active fighter.

At this juncture Jack Hurley made a critical decision and a critical mistake. With the IBC finally offering Matthews a light heavyweight shot to deflect him from the heavyweight division, Hurley opted to go for the big prize, apparently judging he could handle Marciano and the aging Walcott. Matthews did prove he was good enough at heavyweight to handle Layne.

Hurley underestimated Marciano and Matthews went out in two. Not surprisingly, Hurley didn't second-guess his own decision, but dumped on Matthews.

After that it was downhill, with the three losses to Don C.

Still, overall, this is a most impressive career. Matthews was rated in three different divisions at one time or another. He rose to the #1 contender spot at lightheavyweight and was in fact never beaten at lightheavy.

His only losses after the one at 17 were to top men--Booker, Chase, Marciano, and Don C, all rated fighters at the time he fought them.

Probably his worst performances were against Don C, but if the worst that can be pinned on you is that you lost to a man who was European and British Empire champion, you did pretty well.

Matthews might have been a lightheavyweight-pocket heavyweight type, but that doesn't make him very unique with Fitz, Burns, Ketchel, Carpentier, Gibbons and others who fought for the heavyweight title in the same class. He was 179, only eight pounds less than Marciano. Gibbons, in contrast, was 175 against Dempsey, and thirteen pounds lighter.

I see Matthews as an underrated fighter.
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Good post.:good

Mendoza · Sep 20, 2014

McVey says:
How many super heavyweights do you think Marciano would be koing if he had lived and fought to 48years old?
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Webbiano said: ↑

I must have missed the part of Foreman's comeback when he knocked out a legit super heavyweight. In fact, even in his first career he didn't KO a legit super heavyweight. I guess Foreman wasn't a dynamite puncher either

Also using Peltara and Wlacott in comparison is hardly fair. Completely Different levels of fighter in my view.
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Rocky could detonate his dynamite in any round. Foreman had some stamina issues as younger fighter, and paced himself as an older fighter.

mcvey · Sep 21, 2014

edward morbius said: ↑

Not to get back to the subject of the thread or anything, but

I notice that getting knocked down is being often equated during this thread with having a poor chin, but getting knocked down isn't the same as getting knocked out and there are plenty of fighters who were frequently knocked down who were rarely knocked out.

The most prominent is probably Sugar Ray Robinson. Sugar Ray was knocked down at least by--

Mitsos Gilpes
Jake LaMotta (saved by bell at nine)
Jake LaMotta (in another fight)
Artie Levine
Tommy Bell
Rocky Graziano
Rocky Castellani
Gene Fullmer
Wilf Greaves
Wilf Greaves (in another fight)
Joey Giardello
Joey Archer

these I know of.

None stopped him. Only Joey Maxim in the heat ever stopped him.

Joey Maxim was another who was down fairly often (twice in single fights against Lloyd Marshall, Archie Moore, and Bobo Olson) who was only stopped once in one round by Curtis Sheppard.
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What fight do you say Fullmer floored Robinson in?
Lamotta had 16 lbs on Robinson in the fights he dropped him.

mcvey · Sep 21, 2014

Mendoza said: ↑

Rocky could detonate his dynamite in any round. Foreman had some stamina issues as younger fighter, and paced himself as an older fighter.
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You post my question, but don't answer it?
What a strange man you are.:huh

SuzieQ49 · Sep 21, 2014

mr. magoo said: ↑

With all due respect to Rocky Marciano, he was indeed a great puncher and good finisher. But over the span of several decades he has been given undue props for being a one punch knockout artist, which I think is stretching things. In a modern era of larger heavyweights and a list consisting of more men in their primes, he'd likely be comparable to someone like a n Alex Stewart in terms of his raw power level.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WotIszdTyDA

When has Alex Stewart displayed power like that? Marcianos right hand prior to his stance change in 1954 is one of the greatest punches in boxing history p4p.

SuzieQ49 · Sep 21, 2014

Good examples in Kid Mathews, Rex Layne, and Joe Walcott were provided. But not without some condition. Walcott was a finished fighter.
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Walcott was the heavyweight champion of the world, with a 3 card lead on the scorecards

edward morbius · Sep 21, 2014

mcvey said: ↑

What fight do you say Fullmer floored Robinson in?
Lamotta had 16 lbs on Robinson in the fights he dropped him.
Click to expand...

Fullmer had Robinson down for a six count in their January, 1957 fight. This knockdown is on film. He also had Robinson helpless and unresponsive on the ropes for probably over half a minute in their 4th fight. For some reason the referee didn't give Robinson a standing count like he should have.

Neither Fullmer nor LaMotta were particularly hard hitters for middleweight champions. More maulers.

Someone like Zale was probably a harder hitter.

mcvey · Sep 21, 2014

edward morbius said: ↑

I also have a different take on Harry Matthews than the one expressed on this thread--

Matthews was born on 12-9-1922

He turned pro in 1937 and his first loss to was a decision to Jackie Burke (a fighter with a 97-27-21 record at the time) on 1-1-1940. Matthews was just past his 17th birthday.

In 1942, at 19, he defeated and then drew with the former middleweight champion Al Hostak. I think this is quite impressive considering Matthews was still a teenager and as a teenager was in The Ring's top ten at middleweight.

in 1943 he fought and lost to Eddie Booker and Jack Chase, two of the tough black dynamite crew. The fact that he was in the ring with such tough and highly rated fighters before his 21st birthday speaks much about him. Booker at this time was scoring victories over Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall, and Holman Williams. Chase was just as good. I see nothing to really criticize Matthews for here. I question how many fighters at that age could have done better against such opponents.

After three years in the service, Matthews returned to boxing and ran off an unbeaten string of 52 fights with an winning streak of 35 fights (with 28 knockouts) leading into the Marciano fight. Certainly, as with many fighters, there were set-ups, but more than ten of his opponents had or would appear in The Ring's yearly top ten. He made top contender Bob Murphy look inept in his New York debut, but it was Murphy who got the shot at the light heavy title.

Certainly at this point he was a respected fighter, picked by The Ring to replace Robinson as the best all-around active fighter.

At this juncture Jack Hurley made a critical decision and a critical mistake. With the IBC finally offering Matthews a light heavyweight shot to deflect him from the heavyweight division, Hurley opted to go for the big prize, apparently judging he could handle Marciano and the aging Walcott. Matthews did prove he was good enough at heavyweight to handle Layne.

Hurley underestimated Marciano and Matthews went out in two. Not surprisingly, Hurley didn't second-guess his own decision, but dumped on Matthews.

After that it was downhill, with the three losses to Don C.

Still, overall, this is a most impressive career. Matthews was rated in three different divisions at one time or another. He rose to the #1 contender spot at lightheavyweight and was in fact never beaten at lightheavy.

His only losses after the one at 17 were to top men--Booker, Chase, Marciano, and Don C, all rated fighters at the time he fought them.

Probably his worst performances were against Don C, but if the worst that can be pinned on you is that you lost to a man who was European and British Empire champion, you did pretty well.

Matthews might have been a lightheavyweight-pocket heavyweight type, but that doesn't make him very unique with Fitz, Burns, Ketchel, Carpentier, Gibbons and others who fought for the heavyweight title in the same class. He was 179, only eight pounds less than Marciano. Gibbons, in contrast, was 175 against Dempsey, and thirteen pounds lighter.

I see Matthews as an underrated fighter.
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I see him as an overhyped fighter.

mcvey · Sep 21, 2014

frank said: ↑

Rocky left Roland LaStarza in the hospital with a broken arm, several blood clots and requiring surgery.

Veteran contender Lee Savold, someone who had fought Joe Louis amongst other big name heavyweights of the time. Savold's management threw in the towel before round six ended, Savold having been bashed so badly he was unable to throw punches back.
Top contender Rex Layne. Layne was a favourite over Marciano, a heavy punching slugger who reminded people of the great Jack Dempsey, who had great success in the ring, including a victory over Jersey Joe Walcott. His record going into the Marciano fight was 34-1-2 with 24 knockouts. Marciano knocked him out in six rounds, breaking his jaw and shearing his teeth off at the gums! Marciano was also terribly strong, especially for his size. Archie Moore claimed he "was far and away the strongest man I've encountered."
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Marciano was castigated for his faliure to get Savold out of there earlier.

"Considered by boxing critics to be one of Marciano's worst performances against the aging journeyman Savold.

Lee's corner threw in the towel with Savold on his stool after the bell had rung ending the 6th round.

"
Marciano did not break Layne's jaw ,neither did he shear off any of his teeth, he cracked his dental bridge.

Lastarza did not get a broken arm in the second Marciano fight.
Four months after that defeat he fought Don ****ell.

You need to do some research before posting this bull****. :-(

mcvey · Sep 22, 2014

edward morbius said: ↑

I also have a different take on Harry Matthews than the one expressed on this thread--

Matthews was born on 12-9-1922

He turned pro in 1937 and his first loss to was a decision to Jackie Burke (a fighter with a 97-27-21 record at the time) on 1-1-1940. Matthews was just past his 17th birthday.

In 1942, at 19, he defeated and then drew with the former middleweight champion Al Hostak. I think this is quite impressive considering Matthews was still a teenager and as a teenager was in The Ring's top ten at middleweight.

in 1943 he fought and lost to Eddie Booker and Jack Chase, two of the tough black dynamite crew. The fact that he was in the ring with such tough and highly rated fighters before his 21st birthday speaks much about him. Booker at this time was scoring victories over Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall, and Holman Williams. Chase was just as good. I see nothing to really criticize Matthews for here. I question how many fighters at that age could have done better against such opponents.

After three years in the service, Matthews returned to boxing and ran off an unbeaten string of 52 fights with an winning streak of 35 fights (with 28 knockouts) leading into the Marciano fight. Certainly, as with many fighters, there were set-ups, but more than ten of his opponents had or would appear in The Ring's yearly top ten. He made top contender Bob Murphy look inept in his New York debut, but it was Murphy who got the shot at the light heavy title.

Certainly at this point he was a respected fighter, picked by The Ring to replace Robinson as the best all-around active fighter.

At this juncture Jack Hurley made a critical decision and a critical mistake. With the IBC finally offering Matthews a light heavyweight shot to deflect him from the heavyweight division, Hurley opted to go for the big prize, apparently judging he could handle Marciano and the aging Walcott. Matthews did prove he was good enough at heavyweight to handle Layne.

Hurley underestimated Marciano and Matthews went out in two. Not surprisingly, Hurley didn't second-guess his own decision, but dumped on Matthews.

After that it was downhill, with the three losses to Don C.

Still, overall, this is a most impressive career. Matthews was rated in three different divisions at one time or another. He rose to the #1 contender spot at lightheavyweight and was in fact never beaten at lightheavy.

His only losses after the one at 17 were to top men--Booker, Chase, Marciano, and Don C, all rated fighters at the time he fought them.

Probably his worst performances were against Don C, but if the worst that can be pinned on you is that you lost to a man who was European and British Empire champion, you did pretty well.

Matthews might have been a lightheavyweight-pocket heavyweight type, but that doesn't make him very unique with Fitz, Burns, Ketchel, Carpentier, Gibbons and others who fought for the heavyweight title in the same class. He was 179, only eight pounds less than Marciano. Gibbons, in contrast, was 175 against Dempsey, and thirteen pounds lighter.

I see Matthews as an underrated fighter.
Click to expand...

A good performance to beat Hostak but he had lost his last 2 being brutally kod in2 rds by Zale and outpointed by Overlin.

Mathews was unbeaten at lhvy? Well he didnt beat much there imo Murphy was allways a face first brawler who could be frustrated and out boxed as Maxim showed,Marshall was a washed up 37 years old, Nardico wasnt anything special.

Missing from Mathews sheet are names like Moore,Maxim,Morrow,Johnson,Pompey,Hall,Sands,Slade,Smith, Turpin,Satterfield,Bucceroni,Barone.That's a lot of rated men to miss.:think Being dominant at a lower weight, even if you faced the best in the division[which Mathews certainly did not] doesn't qualify you for a title shot in a heavier class.Bob Foster and John Henry Lewis emphatically proved that. I dont think Hurley underestimated Marciano, he was a shrewd old bull**** artist who knew how to build a fighter ,why get beat by Archie Moore or Maxim for the lhvy crown when you can get kod by Marciano for twice ,three times the $$$$$?

thistle1 · Sep 22, 2014

^^^ McVey that's "Shocking"

surely they don't mastermind fights in that manner or protect fighters by, or jumping a weight divisions to do such things???

I am devastated here at this revelation from you, and here I was lead to believe fighters on either end - the protected or the exploited - was indeed a rare thing, or bull****.

thanks for opening my eyes.

mcvey · Sep 22, 2014

thistle1 said: ↑

^^^ McVey that's "Shocking"

surely they don't mastermind fights in that manner or protect fighters by, or jumping a weight divisions to do such things???

I am devastated here at this revelation from you, and here I was lead to believe fighters on either end - the protected or the exploited - was indeed a rare thing, or bull****.

thanks for opening my eyes.
Click to expand...

No one will ever get you to see reality, you are totally blinkered, and trying to lead you into the light is an exercise in futility.

Mendoza · Sep 22, 2014

mcvey said: ↑

Marciano was castigated for his faliure to get Savold out of there earlier.

"Considered by boxing critics to be one of Marciano's worst performances against the aging journeyman Savold.

Lee's corner threw in the towel with Savold on his stool after the bell had rung ending the 6th round.

"
Marciano did not break Layne's jaw ,neither did he shear off any of his teeth, he cracked his dental bridge.

Lastarza did not get a broken arm in the second Marciano fight.
Four months after that defeat he fought Don ****ell.

You need to do some research before posting this bull****. :-(
Click to expand...

I think Rocky was under the weather for that fight. Okay, nobody knocks everyone out. But to the point who besides yourself questions Rocky's power?

edward morbius · Sep 22, 2014

"Marciano did not break Layne's jaw, neither did he shear off any of his teeth, he cracked his dental bridge."

Not being Layne's dentist, I don't know what the facts are here, but I do know where the shearing teeth off at the nubs comes from.

In the 1980 documentary by HBO on Marciano, Boxing's Best-Rocky Marciano, they show the film of the Layne knockout. After Layne is counted out, the narrator (by the way, a guy with a great voice of doom voice) says this-

"After the fight, one of Rex Layne's friends described Marciano's knockout punch as shearing Layne's front teeth off at the nubs."

At best, that is hearsay, but I really have no idea what the counter evidence would be that Marciano did not knock out Layne's teeth. What is the source for that?

Either way, though, the teeth disagreement is beside the point. Marciano clearly knocks Layne out cold with one punch.

mcvey · Sep 22, 2014

Mendoza said: ↑

I think Rocky was under the weather for that fight. Okay, nobody knocks everyone out. But to the point who besides yourself questions Rocky's power?
Click to expand...

I question his ONE PUNCH POWER based on the one punch kos he achieved that seems entirely reasonable to me and ,in case you haven't been following this several have agreed with that premise.
N.B .There is no mention of Marciano being "under the weather," in Skehan's biography of him

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