If Norton officially won the 3rd fight with Ali, does he rank ahead of Frazier?

I never said Ali was in his prime in 75 either, remember I said Frazier beat a close to prime Ali hence saying Ali's prime was before especially when he came to his speed. And as far as how easily Foreman beat Frazier he was the only one to do that and Foreman is an all time great. However Shaver and Cooney both who are not all time great destroyed Norton even easier.

 

:good


By the way, something that many tend to overlook:


The '71 Ali was a GREAT fighter. He showed more toughness, resilience, durability than he had ever done before. He was in great shape. Lay off or not, he had just beaten Quarry and Bonavena, two top contenders, enough to lose the rust (and he hadn't been locked up anyway). Not saying he was as fast as in '67, but he was still great.
And Frazier decisively beat him.


The '73 Ali who fought Norton was 10 pounds overweight and underestimated Norton because on paper he was nothing special. He beat Ali but when Ali was in-shape, a few months later, Norton couldn't beat him.

In short: Frazier beat a very focused and prepared Ali. Norton couldn't beat an in-shape an prepared Ali, who was also 3 years older than the one Frazier beat.


I also think Frazier's resume is much thicker and when i see Frazier fight i have a lot of confidence in him. When i see Norton fight, i can't help but see him as somewhat fragile.

 

Although I agree that Frazier was the better of the two, you really can't use Norton's meetings with Cooney and Shavers as a means to take points away from his legacy. Norton was well past his prime against both of those men, and besides Frazier never even fought those guys, leaving us with no workable comparison to make.

 

This is a very good depiction of the situation, and contains a lot of valid points which I tend to agree with.

 

No
Frazier was the better overall fighter.

 

You have to look at their whole career.

Frazier only lost to all time greats and beat top contenders.

Norton lost to all sorts and beat a mixed bag outside of Ali.

Norton's main claim to fame is being the Ali kryptonite.

 

So basically, a guys entire legacy rests in the hands of incompetent/ or biased judging if we use this analogy.

 

Rember Frazier should have lost his last fight. But it was called a draw. You guys may go on and on about Joe only loseing to champs. But with unbais scores. Fraizer lost vs Jumbo Cummings.

 

Come on now.After 4 yrs of retirement & your gonna hold that against him? Give me a break.:-(

 

I see guys just giving the 3rd Ali fight to Norton, and turn around and say Fraizer only lost to champions. We cant have a double sword here in regards to scores.

 

Joe fought Cummings in 1981, after not having fought since 1976. 5 years of inactivity, bot to mention coming in at 37 years old, and you're going to list that as a legacy tarnisher? I don't hold a lot of Norton's losses against him, but since we're playing this game, then what about Ken's defeats to Cooney, Shavers and a draw with Ledoux? How about the fact that he was knocked out in his 17th pro fight by a 188 Lb fighter with a record 12-2-1?

 

It doesnt tarnish his legend. Just saying that some people here SEEM to rank Fraizer over Norton because Fraizer ONLY lost to champions. And had that Jumo fight score went against Fraizer, they wont have that arugement.

I do belive Norton's loses to Shavers, Cooney and Foreman do tarnish Norton's legend how ever. He never relly show a chin in regards to a puncher, So people will always rank say Marciano or Dempsey over Norton head to head. I have no problems with that, but it DOES play a part.

 

FRAZIER'S BEST WINS

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Buster Mathis
3. Jerry Quarry
4. Oscar Bonavena
5. Eddie Machen
6. Jimmy Ellis
7. Joe Bugner
8. George Chuvalo
9. Bob Foster
10. Ron Stander

NORTON'S BEST WINS

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Jimmy Young
3. Jerry Quarry
4. Duane Bobick
5. Boone Kirkman
6. Jose Luis Garcia
7. Randall "tex" Cobb
8. Pedro Lovell
9. Lorenzo Zanon
10. Ron Stander

Frazier's top list looks a little bit better than Norton's in my opinion. Had Norton managed to get the better end of the decision against a 34 year old Ali, he might have pulled slightly ahead of Frazier, but if we were to then factor in Norton's defeat list and compare it to Frazier's, I think Joe would retake the lead.

 

If Norton won that 3rd fight he'd have the better resume but Frazier had a better tenure as champ and therefore I would rank him ahead.

Good thread though.