... how would we view Pacquiao's all time rating? One of the greatest surprises of the past decade has been Manny Pacquiao's relentless climb up the ranks of all time greats. With every fight, Pacquiao seems to just be adding more exclamation marks to his status as one of the true greats. The biggest blip on his record has been the two fights with Marquez. Even though he lost to Morales, he decisively defeated a fading Morales twice in return, while with Marquez we have the controversial draw in their first fight and the razor thin nature of the second. (Regardless of whether you think Pac or Marquez won). Now, imagine for a moment that Pacquiao had KO'd Marquez in the first round of their fight, whether it had come from Cortez stopping the fight after the third KD, Marquez staying down an extra second cradling his broken nose, or if Marquez had gone down yet again after the three KDs. (And make no mistake, Marquez was on very unsteady legs and his knees were buckling at times while Pacquiao was hitting him with some of the biggest shots of the round, so he could have easily gone down again, which could easily cause Cortez to stop the fight). Most likely, there's no second fight, since afterall who wants to see a rematch with a guy who got KO'd in the first. (Even though Marquez had already shown signs, before the first KD, of what a perfect foil he would be for Pacquiao and how he could give Pacquiao issues). Although Morales doesn't have a perfect blueprint laid out for him by Marquez, he beats Pacquiao nonetheless in their first bout before losing twice, then Pacquiao defeats Barrera again before taking out Diaz, Oscar, and Hatton. Meanwhile, Marquez proves himself by beating Barrera and cleaning out the lightweight division. How would you rate Pacquiao if this had happened? How many spots would his rating jump if there were no doubts about his ability to defeat Marquez?
It also depends on where Marquez went from that fight. His stocks would have dramatically dropped..he may not have got the opportunities he was afforded in the years after this fight. Add to the fact he had the worst management in boxing at the time, I think he really would have struggled to climb his way back up to where he was..maybe he wouldnt have got there until it was to late in his career. What Marquez has done since reflects favorably on Pac aswell..if he was unable to replicate this in the scenario you have put forward, I think Pac's resume would have possibly taken a bit of hit in the long run.
Indeed. Even though I noted that in the scenario laid out things would have gone similarly for Marquez, I too highly doubt his crappy management would have pulled him back from that. I mean, just look how badly they screwed up as it is! Marquez should have been getting props and big fights, and instead he practically went into obscurity. If Marquez was anything less than the superb fighter that he is, he might never have reclaimed his high standing in the sport.
I dont think he would be moving up in weight like he is now. I think either way that fight just exposes the fact that Pac is a bit overated. He has improved quite a bit, but he still shows a lot of weakness against savvy boxer punchers. His two exhibition fights at welterweight didnt do much to convince me hes some super talent. If he dismantles Cotto, who in my opinion is a real welterweight fighter than I'll be a believer, but to me there is still a lot of questions about his ability to handle a good strong fighter with good technical skills at welterweight. Hes enjoyed a big advantage in the strength department for many of his fights at the lighter weights, so it will be interesting to see how he can handle a fighter more on his level physically and maybe a little better technically. I dont like the fact that his camp is trying to get an advantage over Cotto by trying to make him come in at a weight that may weaken him physically. If you want to be a welterweight and win a title, fight at the welterweight limit.
That fight could never have been stopped due to Marquez's lack of faculties after the third knockdown. He wasn't exactly unable to continue. If the three knockdown rule applied, then yeah.
Oh, definitely. I've always felt that the only KD which hurt Marquez was the third, and that was largely due to Pacquiao taking advantage of a free shot while Marquez was holding onto the ropes. And Marquez subsequently showed his tremendous heart and toughness by coming back. However, to a ref watching the last 30 seconds of that round, it looks like Marquez is going to get slaughtered. There are a couple of points where it looks like he keeps himself from going down again mainly by force of will, or where he staggers and looks unsteady after a punch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VxGTSzYCCE For example, check out 7:52 of this clip, where Marquez' knee buckles but he wills himself to stay up, and how he staggers around at about the 8:00 mark, but keeps himself up in part by grabbing onto Pacquiao. If Marquez had gone down again at the 7:52 mark or collapsed a few seconds later, no one in the world would have blamed Cortez for stopping it. (Or at least those who objected would have been in a distinct minority, since everyone would just say that Marquez had already been dropped 4 times and was getting his ass handed to him). Dude. I've become a pretty big fan of Pacquiao over the years, but come on. Pac may eventually deserve to be ranked higher than Sweet Pea, (notice the distinct emphasis on the word may, because we should all know by now that anything can happen and we shouldn't rule out anything) but he needs at least another couple of career defining fights to do it. (Mayweather and Marquez for example). Beating Cotto alone isn't going to do it. Also, Pea will always outshine Pacquiao in terms of sheer ability. Whitaker is practically a boxing god.
Also, as a random thought, I'm not sure Pacquiao would have changed and adapted for the better if the Marquez fight had been stopped. I think it was that draw and the loss to Morales that forced Manny to start changing for the better. Without those experiences, perhaps Roach never gets him to make the adjustments he has made.
Yes like I said, he couldnt just rely on brute strength anymore. He had to actually use some tactical skills to beat the better opponents. The raw talent was there, lets see how far it takes him against the big boys.
