If Patterson had faced Cleveland Williams instead of Liston?

No way. You won’t find a shred of evidence that promotes Cleveland Williams beyond Charley Retzlaf or Pat Comiskey. That’s the level Williams was at.

 

What’s so funny? I’m not telling lies.

 

Shall we write off a whole race of people? “WTF do the swedes know about boxing?” What kind of dismissive madness are you on about now?

53,000 Swedes didn’t know what they were watching? But you are right? Lol.

Thousands came to watch Marciano v Lastarza at the polo grounds. Some of them saw 7-3 Sly Jones whip 28-0 Cleveland big Cat Williams on the undercard. Knocking him down twice, thrashing him on points.

 

Williams claim to fame is busting up Sonny a little before he got stopped a couple of times...........so if you want to sell the Two Time Quitter Ugly Bear as some Monster naturally Williams is the tool to do it.

People with no agenda know/knew that Williams was nothing but a journey man trial horse.

 

I think choklab's point about Comiskey and Retzlaff is well taken. The fighters listed by name appeared in the Ring Magazine Annual Rankings

Charley Retzlaff
75 fights----61 wins, 8 losses, 4 draws, 2 ND, 52 KO's
Winning percentage----81%
KO percentage----69%
Points victories----Johnny Risko, Jimmy Braddock, Ford Smith
KO victories----Tom Heeney, Art Lasky (2), Al Ettore, Stanley Poreda,

Pat Comiskey
87 fights----73 wins, 12 losses, 2 draws, 61 KO's
Winning percentage----84%
KO percentage----70%
Points victories----none over yearly rated fighters
KO victories----Bob Garner, Lee Oma, Al Brown, Omelio Agramonte, Johnny Williams

Cleveland Williams
94 fights----80 wins, 13 losses, 1 draw, 60 KO's
Winning percentage----85%
KO percentage----64%
Points victories----Omelio Agramonte, John Holman, D-ck Richardson (DQ), Wayne Bethea, Billy Daniels
KO victories----Bob Garner, Alex Miteff, Alonzo Johnson, Young Jack Johnson, Roger Rischer, Ernie Terrell

Three big fellows with terrific stats records, but I would say each is somewhat less imposing than meets the eye at first glance. Comparing the three is reasonable I think. To me, Comiskey is the least impressive, despite having the highest KO percentage. I would put Williams at the top, due to the stoppage of Terrell, who was a 27 fight veteran at the time. And the draw with Machen is better than anything the other two ever did, I think. The only one to beat an undisputed champion is Retzlaff. In fairness to Williams, he fought to an older age.

Still, these three are a think a fair group to compare as being on about equal footing. Williams' advantage in the end might be that he was the best boxer rather than the most dangerous puncher.

 

Thanks.

I have long wondered why Pat and Charlie don’t garner so much attention as Cleveland Williams?

The three of them together (Charlie, Pat and Cleveland) represent the exact same kind of thing ...yet it’s only Williams name that pipes up so often.

 

I asked you which of those opponents were world class do you want to answer that question?
I've read Johannson's auto- biography in which he states he knew Hoff was never a top fighter.
Now tell us about these world class fighters Ingo was beating in these outdoor stadiums.
Your agenda is trash Williams and ,by implication disparage Liston we all know this ,you don't think its any kind of a secret do you?

 

That's why he was in the top ten ranking because he was nothing but a journeyman trial horse.Okay.

This has nothing to do with Liston as far as I'm concerned, but plenty to do with him as far as Choklab is concerned. Your description of Liston emphatically demonstrates your own agenda .Best get out of that glass house before you start throwing stones .

 

Henry Cooper, Joe Erskine, Eddie Machen, Floyd Patterson, Franco Cavicchi and Neuhaus were all rated in ring Magazine at one point. Throw in D1ck Richardson too. For a guy with so few fights this is a rather large portion of rated fighters that Ingo beat isn’t it?

 

I'm sure others get comedy.

 

The only time I mentioned Sonny on this thread was to include him among the many guys who decked Williams. No summary of Williams is complete without mentioning that walloping. If recalling the triumphant image of Sonny Liston standing over a flattened Williams can in anyway be seen as disparaging towards Sonny I shall be interested to hear all about it.

 

Neuhaus and Cavicchi were never world class.Ingo won 1 out of 3 against Floyd ,caught Machen cold in the 1st round and ran out on the return contract.Erskine was fringe, a decent boxer who couldn't punch his way out of a paper
bag.Cooper lost to every top man he fought. Richardson never did anything at world level.Stop this spin, it's silly.

 

53,000 watching Ingo beat Eddie Machen in a football stadium. I don’t see the humour?

 

"While his victory over Floyd Patterson was a huge upset at the time, Johansson's standing within heavyweight history is fairly poor. Considered to be an ordinary fighter with a very good right hand, the Swede was perhaps fortunate to have met Patterson, one of history's more vulnerable heavyweight champions, for the title. Patterson also likely took the challenge of Johansson lightly, given the Swede's apparently lackadaisical approach to training. This was also at a time when it was considered a virtual impossibility that a European heavyweight could inflict a defeat on an American champion on U.S soil. Furthermore, Patterson had defended the title just 56 days previously, against Britain's Brian London, and likely considered Johansson to be another inept challenger from Europe"