If Patterson had faced Zora Folley in 1959?

No I’m not defending Cus. It just turns out that in the Autumn of 1958 both Machen and Folly blew their ranking to Europeans.

The high Ring rating of Valdes in early 1959 was not only ludicrous in the extreme anyway, but it was entirely put into perspective when Footballer and part time boxer Charlie Powell demolished Nino in his first fight of 1959.

 

Ludicrous? Valdes knocked out the 1957 RINGS number 3 rated contender in Harold Carter, then he knocked out Johnny Summerin in 5 who was in line for a title shot vs Patterson

Your beloved NBA rankings also rated Valdes number 2 in the world February of 1959!

Stop being in denial

 

Yes. The way I understand it the tax bracket was so high that if a champion defended more than two times a year the third fight was for the government with nothing for the champion. Also, heavyweight championship fights in particular usually took part in ballparks at this time so title defences were largely restricted to when the Stadiums became available. The contenders fought a lot more often and unlike today often fought rated fighters too. They fought each other until the champion was ready to defend. It was difficult for a contender to keep a clean sheet during the part of the year the champion was inactive. A logical challenger was selected from the active contenders before the champion went into training and it would just be the one who happened to be having the best recent results.

 

Valdes was #5 according to associatied press when he unimpressivley beat Mike Dejohn in 1958. Al that happened between that result and Floyd next defending the title was that Valdes took a terrible beating from footballer (and part time boxer) Charlie Powell. That fight happened a full two months before Floyd fought London.

Why would Floyd select a guy knocked down four times on his way to being demolished by a footballer for his next defence?

 

Valdes was ranked number 2 in the world by both NBA and RING in February of 1959

Are you trying to deny this?

Or do you need me to post the evidence again?

 

I’m simply saying Valdes was brutally snuffed out by a footballer in 1959, two months before Floyd next defended the title.

Are you saying Floyd should have chose Nino on the back of that shattering loss?

Valdes was #5 late 1958.

 

Susan why do you keep using the Ring Ratings?? That doesn’t support your argument. The Ring was a magazine not a sanctioning body. Ring ratings had no determination in who got title shots at all. They were merely an opinion and completely unofficial. You can attack me personally but you can’t dispute the facts as I’ve posted them. The fact is that the context I laid out is completely supported by the NBA ratings, the only official, widely recognized, state sanctioned ratings at the time in question.

 

Not sure what the point is in bringing up Valdez ranking in Feb 1959 vis a vis Patterson’s defense against #5 rated London. That might be relevant if the entire world didn’t know that Patterson was in negotiations to fight his #1 contender at the time.

To a guy like you the timeline looks like this: Patterson fought his #1 in 1957 and then did nothing until 1959. But that’s not what happened. Patterson defended his title against his top challenger in July of 1957. From this point on he has one year to do whatever he wants. He could literally do nothing, or he could fight 12 bums. Doesn’t matter. Less than one month later he takes a huge payday to fight the Olympic champ. Nothing wrong with that at all. He could have fought a dancing bear or a pack of wild chihuahua and you couldn’t say jack **** about it because the guy has 11 months left on his clock. The plan is to face the winner of Machen/Folley in the summer of 1958 but in April Machen and Folley fought a horrible televised draw that did nothing to further the cause of either fighter. Nobody wanted to see either one of those guys anytime soon. Compounding the difficulty was that Machen was rated #1, Folley #2 but most thought Folley won. They couldn’t award Folley a higher rating based on the official decision and they couldn’t give Machen the shot because he wasn’t considered the winner. Both guys were getting ready to mount legal challenges (one did) which further prevented and complicated either getting a title shot AND a rematch was being discussed but negotiations dragged on. You can think Damato was avoiding Folley and Machen but the worst thing you can say about him is that he was fortunate in this that both guys literally blew it big time. At worst he was lucky events out of his control unfolded as they did. Meanwhile the clock is ticking and with #1 and #2 tied up and the general public disinterested Patterson fought #3, a popular white heavyweight now gracing the cover of several trade publications.

Less than one month after Patterson beats Harris Machen is crushed in one by Johansson and Ingemar assumes the top spot. The following month Folley loses to Cooper who had been stopped by Ingemar the year previous and who eventually pops up as number 3 as a result of this win over Folley. Immediately Patterson and D’Amato begin negotiating with both Johannson and Cooper for fights. Cooper priced himself out of the fight. Plans were laid out for a big ballpark fight with Johannson the following summer and that winter/spring London was signed as a tuneup at #5 in the ratings.

So the absolute worst you can say about Patterson/D’Amato is that, if you believe they feared Folley/Machen, that they were lucky those two screwed themselves and then got beat. I however view it this way: Folley and Machen were both IBC fighters fronted by the mob and D’Amato didn’t want to do business with them. He didn’t fear them because what was to fear? They were good, not great, but they weren’t instilling fear in anyone. Both were safety first guys, Folley verging on timid, who typically underperformed. Wins over retreads and has-beens weren’t throwing the fear of god into anyone. They weren’t these huge, fast, hard hitting heavyweights. They were average sized with average power and low punch output. Patterson was faster and harder hitting than both. So no, I don’t think fear played into at all on either the part of Patterson or D’Amato. I think when two European fighters unconnected with the mob or the IBC beat those guys D’Amato ran to them because he didn’t have to worry about their entanglements. If he was going to be afraid of anyone it would have been Johannson after how he damn near killed Machen.

Sorry Susie, context is against you here.

 

I have been using NBA ratings to support my theories. Valdes was rated number 2 in the world by the NBA over London when Patterson signed to fight him

Why did Damato choose weak hitting London as a “tuneup” over the number 2 NBA rated hard punching Valdes who had been waiting in line for a title shot far longer than London, going back to his days when he cracked number 1 for a period of a year 1954-1955, then shot yo the rankings again in 57-58. You say Cooper priced himself out and Patterson needed a tuneup for Johansson. Ok, wouldn’t it make more sense to throw Patterson in vs a guy who could actually punch like Valdes as preparation for Ingo compared to a guy who couldn’t crack an egg like London? Damato had even promised summerlin a title shot had he beaten Valdes in 58. After Valdes crushed him in 5, Valdes never got any offer from Damatos camp.


And Harris as an opponent makes no sense to me. Another weak punching and a average boxer who couldn’t threaten Floyd at all. Why didn’t Eddie Machen get the outright shot in 1958 as floyds Number 1? Why did Machen even have to fight an eliminator in the first place? Machen has accomplished more than enough in 56-57 to earn his shot especially after he pounded hurricane Jackson which Eddie was promised he would get a title shot if he won!

Seems like Damato arranged for Folley-Machen as an excuse to fight neither

What title eliminator did Roy Harris win???


Radmacher, I don’t care how much money Patterson got. The fight was a disgrace and damaged his reputation. If he wanted the pay day he should have fought Radamacher then taken on either folley Cooper Machen or Valdes right after...real contenders who had paid their dues


And how do you explain defending your title vs mcneeley? Another tuneup against an unrated weak hitter?



Steve,

Joe Louis himself said after Patterson Johansson that damato protected Floyd from the big punchers in the division and it hurt Floyd against Johansson because he had no idea how to react when he took his first big punch.

I agree with joe. Harris London Radmacher And later mcneeley soft title defenses.

 

Suzie, you are lumping Machen and Folley together, but they really weren't in the same class going into 1958.

Machen had KO'd Valdes, Jackson, and Holman, and beaten Baker and Summerlin. He also beat Maxim, who was at the end of the line, but still the only guy with a win over Patterson.

Machen was the obvious #1 and logical contender.

Folley had outpointed Valdes, and gotten two split decisions over the second-tier Bethea in 1956 and January of 1957. Folley then sat on his rating with really horrid opposition for a top contender, but somehow moved way up to the top of the ratings

I don't have access to the NBA ratings, but at the end of 1956, after the win over Valdes, and the first split decision over Bethea, Folley was #9 in The Ring ratings.

He again edged Bethea in a split decision on January 9, 1957. Then came this run through 1957--

Howie Turner---(20-4-5)
Johnny Hollins---(9-10-1)
J D Harvey---(10-19)
Jimmy Woods---(0-0-0)
Julius Griffin---(6-3)
Jeff Dyer---(18-8-1)
Edgardo Romero---(8-6)
Monroe Ratliff---(9-8-4)
Duke Sabedong---(13-5-1)
Edgardo Romero---(8-8)

These guys aren't even fringe contenders or trial horses for a top man. The best of them might be viewed as a trial horse for a real trial horse.

The result. Folley has risen in The Ring ratings to the #2 position. I find this laughable. I think one could make the case that Folley didn't deserve to even hang onto a rating at all fighting opposition like this. But rising to the top?

In 1958, Folley added the scalp of Garvin Sawyer (13-4) and then came the elimination fight with Machen. The three judges, and the UPI & AP all had it close, and it comes out a draw with these five.

Now Folley beats Art Swiden (28-12) & Pete Rademacher (0-1) which moves him of course to #1 contender status. I think, if I'm not incorrect, that he was still rated #1 by the NBA over Johansson for a short period even after Ingo KO'd Machen,

until Folley fought Cooper (16-7-1), who hadn't done much yet but was still far better than anyone Folley had faced for two years other than Machen. After Folley lost this one, even the NBA couldn't justify rating him over Johansson.

This thread is supposedly about Folley, not Machen or Valdes. My take is that Harris actually had done more than Folley and was a more worthy contender when he challenged the champion in August of 1958.

 

Your opinion of Harris being “more worthy” than Folley is irrelevant because Harris wasn’t more worthy than the number 1 rated Machen, and did not deserve a title shot without beating Eddie Machen.

 

The RING and NBA obviously thought very highly of Folleys skill level of a boxer, and they took head to head abilities into consideration in their rankings. They were right because Folley deserved the decision against Machen in 1958, then won a wide decision over Machen in January 1960. And Folley went on to have a near great career filled with 21 wins over men rated top 10 by RING, While the light hitting stiff Roy Harris fizzled out into obscurity after being toyed with by Liston then dominated 2x by Canadian Bob Cleroux.

 

"Harris . . . did not deserve at title shot without beating Eddie Machen."

Folley hadn't beaten Machen either.

This thread is about Folley, but you keep clouding the Folley issue by bringing up Machen or Valdes, or what would happen years later.

I don't judge FOLLEY having that strong a claim to a shot in 1958 or 1959.

 

No this thread is about folley or Machen not getting a title shot over Roy Harris. You’ve said your case about Folley

What about Machen. Did he or did he not deserve a title shot over featherfisted Harris?

 

I also dislike your way of only ranking fighters based on there resumes and not taking any type of film, talent level, head to head consideration into play

Based on your logic, Lee savold went into his fight with Elmer Ray in 1945 the much more “worthy” fitter having put together quite a list of scalps...while ray feasted on a bunch of journeyman and trial horses to build up his resume... but the talent was there and everyone knew ray was better than savold. And he went out and dominated him. Despite savold accomplishing much more going into their fight, Ray was rated higher by the RING and NBA

Similar to Harris/Folley. Everyone knew Folley was better

I also believe Valdes was the single best win either of them had on their resume. Baker was washed up in 57 with severe hand problems, he was also unrated at the time. Pastrano was a considered a win over a highly rated fighter, but Pastrano was too small and weak to handle the heavyweight division. Harris simply exposed him. Valdes was the number 1 contender just a year prior, and after the Folley loss would go on a 12-1 year to shoot back up to number 2 in the world. Could Harris have beaten Valdes in his prime? I doubt it not a good stylistic matchup for roy