If Prime Ali Fought Frazier.

A prime Ali will still at some point become lackadaisical like Rich said, the assumptions that I feel must definitively be made is that 1. Ali is focused and hungry to keep his crown, and 2. Joe Frazier hates Ali with the same FOTC passion.

I think those are the two predicate this fight is going to be determined by and with those assumptions made I think Ali still takes the win even if a prime Ali fought a FOTC Frazier, I rate prime Ali too highly to think he could be defeated by any version of Frazier.

Frazier isn't fast or technical enough to catch a prime Ali, though Norton certainly would be I think. I think Norton always troubles Ali as long as he has Futch's game-plan and training. But a prime Norton fought an unconditioned Ali who was well past prime and caught very off guard by Norton's masterful work.

 

Don't forget Buddy that Ken Norton needed the aid of a Hypnotist before the first bout against Muhammad Ali who weighed a whopping 221 lbs on March 31 1973. Ali in peak 1967 form usually weighed around 211 lbs and lightning fast.

 

Frazier at his best would always be poison for Ali, people forget that Frazier himself was never the same after their 1st encounter. And was never able reach the level he reached in that fight again.

 

Fighting Frazier at any time is a tough fight for Ali but I believe the ‘67 version of Ali and possibly being better in the ensuing 3 or 4 years beats Frazier.

 

But we are speaking of a peak 1967 Muhammad Ali, not a rusty as a gate Ali on March 8 1971. That 1971 version of Ali had only fought 18 rounds in 43 months, he looked horrible against Oscar Bonavena on Dec 7 1970, even Howard Cosell thought so. In 1967, Ali would have not laid on the ropes or stood there letting Frazier pound his body, and stagger him in round 11, Ali instead could move and glide for 15 rounds if need be. There was a reason that Yank Durham did not want Frazier in the ring with Ali in 1967, that was a good management decision. Many say Ali was working out in those 43 months of inactivity, he was busy in Court and on the lecturing circuit at different colleges. Even so, sparring is not the same as actual ring combat, big gloves, headgear. Ali would be too slick for Frazier in 1967, Durham was shrewd, hoping Ali would be imprisoned for defying the draft. I saw Ali fight live on television during his championship reign which consisted of 9 title defenses. I did not need the use of You Tube, there was no You Tube in 1967, Ali never touched the canvas during his championship reign from 1964-1967.

 

I'm not saying Ali couldn't beat a prime Frazier in 67, but i also think that version of Frazier always gives Ali a tough time. Remember Frazier never reached that level again that he had in 71.

Well Ali did also beat Quarry aswell as Bonavena, beating two world class opponents is ok preparation. I mean obviously a lay off is going to hurt any elite athlete. But i do think Frazier deserves alot of credit for beating Ali that night, the punishment Frazier took in that fight most Heavyweight's wouldn't of been able to take.

Well Frazier had only been a professional for like 2 years, so i think he was too green at that point.

 

Joe Frazier did earn that victory fair and square on March 8 1971, but what if Ali had all of his physical attributes from 1967, had been active going into The Fight Of The Century? Ali defended his title 5 times in 1966. Ali did not enter the ring against Frazier as a co champion in 1971, he entered as a challenger. But Ali had never lost his title to anyone except the U.S Government. Ali with all of his 1967 gifts might carry the fight on maybe one of the judges scorecards, remember Ali did not need to use Rope A Dope in 1967, he was very light on his feet and had tons of stamina. Ali was flatfooted in 1971 vs Frazier, he laid on the ropes, got tagged many times. I am not one of these conspiracy theorist who complain about officiating in major fights, I am not qualified to officiate. The only scoring and final verdict by the boxing officials is what matters, opinions don't. But really think of what could have happened, I am not posting to change your mind but it could be interesting to imagine.

 

On this point Rich I feel like some are revisionist regarding Ali's ability to dance. People act like Ali could only keep it up for a few rounds and would gas but that's absurd. Ali had unarguably some of the best stamina of any athlete ever, he often danced for more than 5 rounds a fight, and could do it more if he pleased. Ali like any fighter paced himself and this would be no different against Frazier if they had fought sooner as the thread suggests.

 

Agreed. Some posters who were not old enough to see Ali fight live only rely on You Tube and opinions of others. Joe Frazier was a good champion, he earned his victory over Ali fair and square with the help of the draft board and U.S Courts but then why didn't Yank Durham allow Frazier to fight Ali in 1967 or enter the 1967 WBA Tournament, Heck Durham even turned down a fight with a past his prime Sonny Liston. It sure sounds like it is all about money instead of prestige. Sure prestige does not pay the bills but without it sometimes victories can look cheap.

 

No doubt Richard and your opinion is a fair one, but even with Ali's mobility and stamina. I still think Frazier's style at his best would of gave Ali problems, Frazier also has unlimited stamina and in his prime can fight 15 rounds with non stop aggression. Also remember Frazier did do well against skillful boxers like Ellis, Quarry. I personally think a swarmer like Frazier always does well against a boxer like Ali.

Overall Richard i think you can look at it a few ways, Frazier that night on 1971 was a force of nature and it's one of the best single performances from a Heavyweight ever. And as i said Frazier was never able to reach that peak level again that he had that night, and on the flipside you can say the lay off did hurt Ali aswell, and he was never quite the same fleet footed dazzling boxer he was in the mid to late 60s.

My final thoughts are that yes i do think the mid 60s to late 60s Ali can beat the 1971 version of Frazier, but i still think style wise Ali would still have alot of problems.

 

I am some posters haha

Nevertheless I have seen Ali's entire catalogue of fights and nearly all exhibitions, trainings too. The I'd argue the footwork of Ali is likely one of the least exhausting aspect of his style as counterintuitive as it may sound. But imagine this, Ali's footwork and tangentially his reflexes are the backbone of his style, sure he cannot dance forever but Ali's fundamentals are within his dancing and defense. He practiced and conditioned his footwork more than anything else I would imagine.

So I would suppose that brings up the question of what exhausts Ali, of course the dancing does but, what really tires him out? I would argue it's the beatings he allowed himself to take, he was sacrificial when it came to planting his feet and throwing with opponents far stronger and more comfortable on the inside. It was the beatings that always slowed him down, the beatings that turned his legs to rubber, and the only way to keep Ali from exiting the ropes is to keep. throwing. punches. I would argue Ali could dance for half of every fight if he so chose, but that isn't how fights are won.

 

My 2c.

Post exile Ali came back with substantive, irreversible reductions of his prime attributes.

He also hadn’t yet shaken off the ring rust when he fought Frazier.

So, Ali still hadn’t even reached the full potential of his second career capabilities.

I believe that potential was achieved in the Norton and Frazier rematches and the fight against Foreman in Zaire.

Imo, the FOTC was closer than most scored it.

Even without his prime mobility, Ali gave Joe a steady, good going over in the first 4-5 rds.

Not to dismiss Joe’s contributing work otherwise, but Ali first began to tire due more to deficiencies in his own stamina - giving Joe the opportunity to step in and step it up.

A faster, more mobile and reflexively adept Ali with prime stamina doesn’t tire - at least certainly not as early as he did in the FOTC.

I see Ali laying the same opening rounds beating on Joe without tiring when he did in FOTC - and I see prime Ali continuing for a good number of rounds longer than he did in the FOTC punishing Joe more than Joe would be punishing him.

By the time Ali might slow down a bit, I envisage Joe as already being 3/4 beaten - and much less empowered to capitalise on the slowing of Ali’s own pace and output - and when I say “slowing”, Ali would still be that much better off in the later rounds than what he faded to during the FOTC.

For a good measure of Ali’s post exile deterioration one can look to his 66 and 72 matches against cross over opponent George Chuvalo.

Chuvalo himself didn’t improve from their first fight but he still managed a much closer fight against Ali second time round. Ali was simply somewhat less than his prime self - and not least for his reduced stamina and mobility.

 

Ali was what 29 years old when he faced Frazier? So Ali was in his prime. If you want to say Ali was past his prime at 29 then use that excuse for every other heavyweight who was 29 years or older.

 

Anytime 1969 or after that was gonna be Joe's time.

One problem Ali would always have is that he didn't think that much of Frazier until he got in the ring with him. It's something impossible to prepare for until he went through it. The way Frazier attacked was unconventional.

Ali would underestimate Joe the first time they fight. He thought he was too small and had no style. That would always be a problem.

Ali's own mother tried to tell him when her son said "don't worry mama Frazier's a bum" his mom "Frazier’s no bum".

 

$3 moths without an actual fight from 1967-1970 can take the starch out of anyone's game. Muhammad Ali was 25 when he was stripped of his title and boxing license. Ali did not fight from March 22 1967- until Oct 26 1970, he did not work out during his long absence, he spent time in court attempting to appeal his June 20 1967 conviction of Draft Evasion, then a Federal Crime and time on the college lecturing circuit to support he and his family. When muscles are not properly used they tend to deteriorate, no exercise to stimulate the muscles, you lose stamina, reflexes, the first thing to go in a fighter is the legs.