If Prime Foreman Faced Every Champ Before Him..?

Agree about head movement, strongly disagree about counter punching. Surviving when hurt is impossible to tell, we have too little footage of Johnson when hurt.

 

As the NABF champion he had a claim as the legitimate #1 contender supposedly. He was on an undefeated streak beating guys like Lyle and Frazier yet somehow Frazier got his 3rd fight with Ali and a guy who Foreman beat in his 4th professional fight (Wepner) got a shot as well. Ali even called George and said if he "got rid of Norton" he'd give him a rematch.

Ali didn't want the rematch, plain and simple. And I don't even blame him, nor do I think this suddenly knocks his legacy down, but facts are facts.

 

Well Young was only stopped twice, once when he was a 7-3 rookie going up against the murderous puncher Shavers with 41 knockouts under his belt. The 2nd stoppage was when Young was way past his prime and lost on cuts to a prime Gerry Cooney.

Young was incredibly good at surviving as seen when Foreman sent him flying all the way across the ring with one sledgehammer blow and he covered up and held on like glue until the cobwebs cleared as Foreman pounded away. According to Young himself, he was out on his feet and if Foreman managed to land "his pinky" he would have fell over. Young also fought sluggers like Lyle (twice), fought Shavers in a rematch, and when completely washed up survived bouts with prime versions of Greg Page, Tubbs, and Tucker without being stopped or even hitting the deck. His defense and survival skills speak for themselves.

Johnson has more than twice as many stoppage losses as Young and faced less punchers than he did.

 

I'm not trying to sell the idea that Johnson was as durable as Young, he likely wasn't. I just think you sell Johnson's durability short - he had three KO losses during his whole meaningful career. Sure, you can count his 1920s "career", but it won't tell us anything about Johnson as a fighter.

Johnson himself fought a lot of bangers, some of the hardest hitters of his time.

 

Ok but my point is he was stopped more than half a dozen times in his physical prime in his 20's by guys like Sanders, Brewster, etc.

Then he didn't face very many big hitters other than Povetkin and Peter during his long reign as champ. He clinched and hugged Povetkin to death in a very ugly bout and Povetkin barely landed anything. Peter knocked him down multiple times and had Wladmir literally turning his back and running.

He didn't face another big hitter again until the Joshua bout and got demolished. Between guys like Povetkin/Peter and Joshua, he fought mostly C level bums who most certainly were NOT better than Brewster and Sanders. I don't even think the most die hard Wladmir fans would argue that guys like Pianeta or Wach or Jennings were much better fighters than Brewster and Sanders.

So no, I don't see what changed in regards to his actual physical chin, it's simply that he got better at hiding his chin/surviving and improved his defense and hugging tactics. If his chin supposedly got better he wouldn't have been floored by a caveman like Peter or gotten stopped by an inexperienced Joshua.



As for Walcott, yet his level of competition improved as he got older. No one is denying that. Louis and Rocky were all time greats and no one is calling him trash or a bad boxer for being KO'd by them.

Simon is not remotely an all time great and neither is Fox. He suffered knockout losses to them when he was 23 and 26. Point being he was KO'd both in his physical prime when he lacked experience and also when he was a veteran facing all time greats. The common denominator is that he wasn't particularly great at taking hits. I don't see how you can possibly explain that away.


For the record I give Charles a much better chance than Walcott based on styles. And despite Waloctt knocking out Charles, I think Charles had the better chin and was more well rounded with better defense.

 

Ok maybe I'm selling Johnson's durability short. He was still legitimately stopped by men who don't remotely hit as hard as Foreman and weren't near his size, Willard being the only exception. And Willard himself is not a particularly hard puncher for a guy of such tremendous proportions. A nearly 40 Johnson was WIllard's best knockout.

I still have a hard time envisioning Johnson beating Foreman using his usual wrestling and infighting tactics. Not unless he fights the perfect fight and manages to tire him out without getting nailed too hard for at least 8-10 rounds and drags Foreman into deep waters later. Even then that's a pretty tall task.

 

Why would you create a scenario making him wear unfamiliar gloves and fighting outdoors which he isn't used to?

Best to either have both fighters wear what they're used to or giving them time to adjust to each other's rule set.

 

You’re showing your bias.

I’m assuming he’d be fighting the 1900 crew under their standards, not transporting them into an era that wouldn’t work well for them.

 

He was never close to his prime when he got stopped. I mean, any pre-1904 fight is pointless when we're talking about 1910 Johnson.

 

I just watched the fight.

My thoughts are that only in the first round and parts of the last two rounds, Johnson showed some of this "in and out" movement. He leaped away when Moran got wild. But for the most part, both Johnson and Moran fought pretty flat footed. It was inside fight for at least 80% of the contest with both guys wrestling and pushing each other.

The footage gives me zero confidence Johnson would be able to keep up a supposed hit and run, in and out strategy against Foreman. Ted Gullick and Frazier in the 2nd fight tried that. Scott Ledoux tried it for a couple of rounds. Foreman simply walked them down with jabs, went to the body, tracked them down eventually and forced them to the ropes and clobbered them.

I don't see anyone except perhaps David Haye or a prime Ali being able to dart in and out against a prime Foreman and winning with hit and run tactics. Certainly not the Johnson specifically of the Moran fight.

Then he gets KO'd even faster.

My point is even using "economical" subtle foot work to get in and out won't save Johnson from Foreman walking him down. And in the fight you suggested I watch, Johnson did not do that for very long and spent a lot of the fight flat footed.

Not only that, but Johnson kept both hands very low. He'd be wide open for a looping right hand or hook, both of which Foreman excelled at and had a reach and height advantage. There's a reason Ali chose to go to the ropes and kept a high guard protecting his head rather than use his usual low hands stick and move style.

He could. Johnson's endurance could be a problem down the stretch if he survives past the 6th without getting badly hurt. And Johnson's guard manipulation and parrying tactics equaled or surpassed Foreman's. It could be very interesting if Foreman doesn't get impatient going for the knockout and the two of them are constantly trying to assert control.

By no means am I suggesting Foreman would easily just track him down and blast him out early with no effort.

Ok but the conversation was comparing him to Jimmy Young orginally, not me blasting Johnson for lacking durablity. And my main point was as good as Johnson's defense was, he got clipped and KO'd more than twice, so someone who both hits hard and is a good finisher like Foreman has a huge chance.

The difference being Foreman was gassed after fighting a dumb fight, fought outdoors in smoldering heat after foolishly failing to arrive early to get used to the climate, was dropped in the 12th, and got up at the count of 2. A 12 year old could have pushed Foreman over in that moment. Foreman shook off bombs from Chuvalo, Norton, Frazier, etc without blinking.

What people fail to take not of is that Foreman lived and died by the knockout and would not stop punching until he did just that. I guarantee if you put any other big puncher in either Zaire or Puerto Rico and put a gun to their head telling them to keep punching they'd mostly likely be gassed within the same time frame if not sooner. It wasn't a question of durability or stamina, it was a terrible game plan and terrible pacing.

He seemed to be engaging with Moran quite a bit with lots of body shots, uppercuts, and fierce exchanges up close.

Ali and Young moved away from Foreman and retreated. They wrestled when there was no other option. They troubled him because they were using head movement, counters, tying him up, and pulling away. And for the record, Foreman didn't wrestle them muscle against muscle, he was punching at them while getting his neck grabbed or his arms tied up. It wasn't that he couldn't wrestle them, he wasn't even trying to and kept trying to hit them even as he was being manipulated in the clinches.

Johnson intentionally engaged in the clinches and fought on the inside any chance he got.

So it's a little inaccurate to claim Foreman struggled with guys who tried to wrestle with him. 223 pound Scott Ledoux tried wrestling with him with their arms locked together and Foreman effortlessly man handled him and shoved him into the canvas immediately to put him in his place. According to you, 220 was overweight for Johnson so an in shape Johnson weighing, what, 205 lbs? Probably wouldn't have a lot of success trying to wrestle and clinch with a 224-228 Foreman. Especially factoring in that Foreman was actually cutting weight and naturally was 230+. That's why he looked so big and shoved guys around so easily.

 

I'm biased for suggesting you let both men use their own gloves?

I'm biased for suggesting you let Foreman get used to fighting in 1900 rules or letting Johnson get used to 1970's rules? That's completely fair.

Transporting Foreman to Johnson's time and then immediately shoving old school gloves on his hands and pushing him out to fight makes no sense.

 

The reports that I have seen, suggest that Walcott was doing well, but he faded down the stretch and got stopped.

What is not in doubt, is that Walcott was not a full time professional fighter at this stage of his career.

He was a man who had a full time job, and moonlighted as a boxer.

Yes but Layne didn't stop him.

He outpointed him, so it is not a mark against Walcott's chin.

For the avoidance of any doubt, I make no excuse for the Layne loss.

The part time fighter narrative only applied to his pre war losses.

A bit of careful selection there, and it is not clear what your argument is.

Are you saying that he had a weak chin, or are you saying that he was prone to getting outpointed by punchers?

Whichever the case, you need to refine the argument.

Foreman was a slugger.

Marciano was a swarmer.

Louis was a boxer puncher.

Walcott has a stylistic advantage over Foreman, that he did not have over Marciano or Louis.

It doesn't, it is merely a relevant observation.

Tunney was capable of being much more mobile on his feet, than the 70s version of Ali.

I say capable of being, because that was never his natural style.

 

I didn’t finish reading your post but I’ll start by saying you missed so many better punchers and fighters in general then Sanders and Brewster both of which were C fighters. David Haye, Chagaev, Pulev, Povetkin, Rahman, Peter beat Brewster in the rematch (lot of crazy European names excuse and spelling errors) yes he did cheat the heck out of Povetkin no argument there. But still that’s a lot more names and better fighters then his previous KO losses. That tells me his chin improved.

 

I'm glad you did, most people don't do that too often

I agree, the fight for most part was flat footed and fought inside. It doesn't change the fact that Johnson showed quick feet in a few moments. That was my point - he didn't have slow feet, he simply didn't dance around often. The capabilty was there though.

Gullick and Frazier were short, undersized swarmers who were out of depth against Foreman. They didn't try to smother Foreman inside with grappling and they couldn't counter Foreman's jab. They were also pushed around with ease, I don't think Foreman would find peak Johsnon easy to push around at all.

He could try to frustrate Foreman with making him miss, counter him and smother inside. I'm not talking about trying to move in and out in similar way Frazier tried in the second fight, Johnson wouldn't fight that way. He'd make Foreman miss (he did that to anyone he fought) and he could definitely outsmart him in clinches. Foreman was extremely strong man, but he wasn't refined clincher.

I mean, Johnson wasn't stupid. If he got forced to use high guard, he would. His low hands weren't without a purpose and he certainly wasn't easy to find with jabs and straight rights.

Yeah and Johnson toyed with outmatched Ketchel, got hit cleanly and went up immediatly, then stopped Ketchel within a second. Using Ketchel KD is dishonest from your part.

Johnson was one of the strongest fighters ever in terms of physical strenght, but what's more important is that he was very skilled clincher. LeDoux could be 250 lbs, but he would never be a good analogy to Johnson.

Johnson was at his best in 1910 against Jeffries, when he outmuscled 227 lbs Jeffries. He was 208 lbs in that fight. That said, Johnson didn't look bad at 215 lbs, so I think he could get into the ring heavier against Foreman.

 

Yes, biased.

Johnson fought in an era where combination punching and punch selection were limited by the gloves, and pacing was slowed by the length of fights.

The question asks how Foreman would've done against previous champions. That means letting him melt in the sun in a 25 rounder with tiny gloves, because that's what early era boxers were doing.