If Rocky defeat both Sonny Liston & Floyd Patterson, how will you rank him?

He would be a good candidate for # 1 although both Patterson and Liston would be downgraded as too young and too old. There would still be people on here saying he fought no one

 

not going to happen in his 40s, to be fair.

 

I agree Jeff, on all points.

While Louis was shot by his standards, so it was a just a good win. The other three were not far past their primes. Walcott did fight superbly, though likely age caused him to tire late. Charles & Moore were very good. Very good victories, though they had moved up in weight.
Rocky never fought the bane of great swarmers, an even near great slugger. Very young beanpole Vingo does not count.

Even prime I do not see Rocky beating Liston. It would be a variant of Foreman/Frazier, maybe Rocky lasts through the middle rounds & takes a tremendous beating.

 

It would've been absolutely huge for him and help people overlook his biggest historical weakness, which is the brevity of his reign. I love Marciano, but it must be acknowledged that his entire career fit in an 8 year span and other heavyweights had unbeaten streaks longer.

Beating Liston and Patterson while past prime would give him a strong claim to, at worst, a top 3 ranking.

 

Top three probably, behind only Ali and Louis.

 

It's simply a scenerio that would have never played out.
He could have fought Patterson in late 56 and won but I don't see it as a foregone conclusion. Taking nothing away from the Rock, he was a tad 'dirty' and may have roughed up a young Floyd.
Liston? That could never have happened unless Sonny got going much earlier under good guidance, and been challenging mid-50's.
In that scenerio, I don't see Rock doing well against Sonny as many others see as well.
IMO a 'what if' thread that wasn't going to happen.

 

When Marciano retired, Floyd Patterson was fighting at Light Heavyweight. After Marciano retired, Cus D'Amato finally allowed Floyd to move up to Heavyweight and fight for the vacant title.

Marciano did the commentary on the Patterson-Moore fight and made sure the viewers knew about the whole scheme. He says it just 15 seconds into the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCUkqyfUjTU

So a Patterson-Marciano fight could never have happened because D'Amato wanted no part of it (see Patterson vs Maxim and you'll understand why).

Then Ingemar Johanson knocked Patterson out, and he was a crude, no-defense version of Marciano.

As for Liston, he was a nobody when Marciano retired due to back problems. But Marciano had fought much bigger men before and he loved fighting guys who moved toward him.

The only guys who gave Marciano some trouble were three guys who moved away from him and counterpunched (Walcott, Moore, and LaStarza).

 

Realistically if he had beaten Patterson in '56 and Liston soon thereafter, both wins would have probably been disregarded because Patterson would have been labeled a youngster without much experience and Liston would have been labeled as an unknown can crusher.

 

A victory over Patterson would make no difference.
I would expect that.
Liston is a different story. That would matter.

 

I don't think Patterson would have made much of a difference Cus and Floyd were not going to fight Marciano and I think most people think Floyd was all wrong for Marciano. If Marciano beat Liston prior to 1958 I don't think it would have been perceived as a big win much like Bob Satterfield KOing Big Cat when he did

 

So in reality when Marciano did retire, what was the general consensus on his place in heavyweight history at that time?

Sure he was the only one that was undefeated but would I be wrong to assume people at that time still rated him below the likes of Louis, Dempsey and maybe Johnson?

 

WAIAIAIAIAT a minute here folks. Something stinks of plagiarism.

The OP & a couple of the replies, by Jeff3300 & David B., are virtually exactly IDENTICAL to posts on Duggerman's Ranch last month, a great boxing site I have been on for a while. It is one thing to take the same exact hypothetical question. But not only the ideas but the exact WORDING were stolen from there.

So Ken Ashcroft, if you are redfeng007 there it is understandable, that would be your original question. If not, at least it is only an unoriginal question. But what about you other two, pretty new, are you from there? I know you are not Entaowed there David & jus' passed off your commentary as mine, because that is MY handle on both web sites! atsch:verysad:nut

I am gonna link this on the ranch on that thread & see what they think. My evidence is here, pasted below.




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Selected post Nov 19, 2014; 4:00am
If Rocky defeat both Sonny Liston & Floyd Patterson, how will you rank him?
redfeng007
209 posts

This post was updated on Nov 24, 2014; 4:15am.
Two more great fighters to fight...



Imagine he beat both of them in their prime, despite being older.

I think people will stop talking on how Rocky only beat fighters past their prime.

He definitely have to be among the top 5.

I think he is worth this title,

Tough enough to beat anyone

http://www.youtube.com/v/lkGVPIceTi4&autoplay=1
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Shane
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Nov 19, 2014; 4:38am
Re: If Rocky defeat both Sonny Liston & Floyd Patterson, how will you rank him?


Shane
752 posts

But not all the guys Rocky beat were old. I get tired of people saying that, also. Ezzard Charles was only two years older than Rocky, Walcott was a late bloomer and fought the best fight of his career against Rocky, and Archie Moore won the light heavyweight title again after his loss to Rocky. The only "old" guy Rocky beat was Louis and other than losing to Ezzard Charles, Louis was on a winning streak despite losing his skills.

Realisticly, Rocky would never be able to pull off wins over Sonny and Floyd if he kept fighting. He could beat Patterson because he had the punch to do so, but Sonny Liston? Too big and strong for Rocky and Rock would be in his late thirties by the time they fought.

But let's say Rocky did beat them. I'd probably rank him #1 or #2 of all time. Being undefeated, winning against hall of famers like Louis, Walcott, Charles, and Moore, AND beating Liston and Patterson? Perfect legacy. A little too perfect, actually.
photo lori_zps4066d257.gif


Entaowed
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Nov 20, 2014; 4:07am
Re: If Rocky defeat both Sonny Liston & Floyd Patterson, how will you rank him?
Entaowedonline
1300 posts

I agree Shane, on all points.

While Louis was shot by his standards, so it was ajust a good win. The other three were not far past their primes. Walcott did fight superbly, though likely age caused him to tire late. Charles & Moore were very good. Very good victories, though had moved up in weight.
Rocky never fought the bane of great swarmers, an even near great slugger. Very young beanpole Vingo does not count.

Even prime I do not see Rocky beating Liston. It would be a variant of Foreman/Frazier, maybe Rocky lasts through middle rounds & takes a tremendous beating.