If shot Fury beats peak Usyk, where does he rank?

I think Usyk should have stayed at cruiserweight so I'm not one to defend his heavyweight exploits in the first place.

But for sake of comparison what Fury wins would you rate ahead of Dubois win over Joshua and why? Wlad is widely considered his best win and Joshua beat Wlad in his very next fight.

 

We've already discussed this a few pages back.

Wlad is Joshua's best win. But Wlad was 41, coming off a loss, having been previously shutdown by Fury a year and a half earlier.
Other than Fury, Joshua x2 are Usyk's best wins. I'm not sure how one would evaluate the worth of those wins.

More than Usyk gets for not having them on his ledger.

 

Beating the reigning lineal champion in Wlad on his home turf > Dubios beating up a beltless AJ imo.

 

I'm expecting Fury to win although I don't want him to, if he does win he won't become the ATG some of him fan boys already claim he is. Fury's resume is very weak and I believe if he fought in past eras he would have been found out

 

All the portents suggest Fury will lose (in my opinion). But, say he were to pull the win off, then I'd agree he won't be an ATG - not in my view, at least.

If he were to retire there and then, I'd tentatively suggest he has earned a place in the Top-30 All-Time Heavyweights.

My feeling is, however, all this will become quite academic come the 21st of December.

 

Lol Usyk is 37 years old and much smaller. The idea that hes at still his physical peak now is ridiculous. Hes just that good.

 

I don't think so.
Where I say top 10, I am talking one of the overall division top 10 ratings not just a governing body
I don't think Chisora was in the top 10 on any of his wins over him, though I do feel the first and second wins were good wins
Opponents - Wladimir, Wilder and Whyte

What argument
I asked you which of his lesser wins exactly did you feel was what made such a big difference between the two, in your opinion

Fair enough.
I was asking your opinion only. But with that in mind I would guess you wouldn't rate Fury's win over Cunningham as Cunningham was a world champion at CW which is where he made his name. Is that correct?
Surprised if so as I thought Fury beating Cunningham was a decent win

OK
So you feel filler fights are the way forward?
You feel Usyk would rank higher if he beat 10 50 - 100 rated HWs ?


Edit
I was looking at the boxrec top 20 HWs and Usyk has a win over 6 different fighters in their current top 20.
4 in their top 10

Fury has a win over 3 of their current top 20HWs.
0 in their top 10

 

You brought Fury up for the comparison tbh, so it would be your argument.

Cunningham was a heavyweight when he fought Fury. Usyk and Hunter weren't.

Now I feel you're just being selective with your top ten by switching the goal posts. To me it would be relevant when they actually fought, and if they held a ranking within a sanctioning body/ring magazine.

I'm also not suggesting he take fillers and tune ups. Usyk doesn't fight often enough as is for that to work. He needs more top ten wins to cement his ATG status in the Heavyweight division.

 

Usyk isn't Ali, Holmes or Foreman hes got 5 major wins at the weight class which were all either close or had a foul controversy. Usyks already beaten Fury by a close margin reversing that outcome isn't going to do anything for him against other greats.


Giants like Valuev, Willard and Carnera tend to not get full credit historically because of their size. In ATG conversations its about being impressive and guys who are so big they are seen as being there just because of their size do have that held against them. Smaller guys get credit for barely beating the bigger fighter does the giant get the same credit for barely beating the smaller one? What about just coming close to winning?

Wlad Klitschko has his size held against him all the time and he was dominant. You can say thats unfair but people have always given big guys less credit for the same feats. Otherwise people wouldn't be fawning over Usyk. The whole credibility of Usyk in the ATG convo is based on giving him more credit because hes smaller so I don't see what the problem is bringing up the other side of that coin.

No I think Usyk is incredibly overrated off a few close and/or controversial wins and there is no way future generations with a clean set of eyes aren't going to be able to see right through it. I don't think any of the HW resumes from this era belong in the all time discussion and the way Fury, Usyk, Joshua and Wilder clogged up the sport is an embarassment. The truth is I don't need to handicap the credibility of Furys wins he got knocked down twice by a MMA fighter. The only possible redemption for this groups historical legacy is Dubois going on to do great things. I'll defend Fury resume when Joshua fans try to pretend like he didn't do the same thing but that is within the confines of this era. In the ATG conversation all these resumes are a joke.

 

Well - Thanks for providing a broad overview of your take. However, my remarks were more a general observation of the wider responses regarding Fury within the thread, of which yours was just one.

As it relates to your postings, I was referring specifically to this comment from you:

This^ has nothing to do with Fury and an MMA fighter or "this groups historical legacy".

You're explicitly asserting that Fury beating anyone of Usyk's size carries no value. Regardless of what you think of Fury's performances and ledger, making a statement like you have is a clear attempt to takeaway from the credibility of a win, should Fury somehow manage to achieve one against Usyk.

 

The thread is about Fury and Usyk and I asked you a question based on what you had written.
It was a question, not an argument

Agreed and at HW Cunningham didn't do so much. Less than Hunter in my opinion.
So the bulk of what made Cunningham the good win for Fury would be what he did at CW wouldn't it?
Please can you answer that

With Hunter, I think it would be considered a decent win for Usyk as at the time they were both Undefeated, Hunter with more pro wins under his belt and hasn't lost a decision yet having been in the ring with Bakole and Povetkin

I can see the point you are trying to make there but in fairness Usyks last 4 HW fights were against top 10 rated opponents still in the top 10 and that certainly isn't being selective just factual
It was just an observation but once again going by that standard they have both only beaten 3 different top 10 rated HW opponents. I am only taking HW for Usyk and not what he did at CW

That's fair but why do you feel it any different for Fury? He at the moment only has 4 wins over top 10 rated opponents when he beat them.
Usyk also has 4 at HW

So you don't suggest Usyk has filler fights, don't feel he has done as much as Fury at HW which I am not disputing, but once again back to my original question again that you are not answering
I asked you which of his lesser wins exactly did you feel was what made such a big difference between the two, in your opinion

Just a straight answer whether it be Wallin or someone but be aware that would be looking retrospectively and something you didn't like when I mentioned the top 20

 

I seem to keep getting these heavyweight winners wrong recently, maybe now I'll break the cycle?

Usyk is going to beat Fury into retirement within 7 rounds. He just looks extra composed and knows he has his number

I think Fury brought the best he had left and won't repeat

I know I'm a Fury fan on this forum (more Aj hater really), but I think this fight will be one sided this time

I still think Usyk is a little overrated on this forum (not goat), but he is still a masterful fighter and I expect him to learn more from their first encounter

 

I don't really know what to say however a decision is more than likely.

I wouldn't touch this fight in a bet. Unless maybe a Draw @ +3000 odds or something similar. It's too political

 

The thread might be, but my original post only concerned Usyk. You brought Fury into it, so that would make it your argument in regard to responding to my post. What Fury has or hasn't done doesn't change my opinion on what Usyk needs to do to further his own legacy at heavyweight.

Not sure why you're still trying to factor in Usyks Cruiserweight fights when talking about his heavyweight career. They're irrelevant here.

Again, I didn't mention Fury. It has no bearing on what Usyk needs to do to improve in the ATG rankings. If it helps I believe Fury needs to do more as well.

No, I wouldn't consider Wallin a top ten opponent for Fury. I don't have a resume list for all of their opponents and subsequent rankings either. But to humor you, if they're tied in top wins it's only logical the tie breaker goes to the man with the most beaten opponents.

But at the end of the day there's still time for both fighters to do more in their careers. We won't know for certain until they retire. I also appreciate and have enjoyed our discussion

 

That's a terribly negative and blinkered view. The guy beat Chisora easily and no sane person would argue the Joshua results, he won comfortably. It would be hard to score the Fury fight against him too tho it was competitive. One could hardly expect him to dominate Fury.

Of course reversing the result would do something for him. How in gods name could it not lol. Sheer madness. Boxing didn't totally finish when George retired.

They simply weren't that good. You're incredibly biased and picky with your crazy criteria's.

I didn't hold his size against him or for him at Heavyweight. It's the open division. It can be noted but it doesn't score any points strictly talking of his heavyweight rating. His overall greatness is heavily enhanced tho. Foreman was bigger than most he fought 1st career, i'd bet my life you don't hold that against him.

I'm sympathetic to your view Usyk is getting fast tracked by a great many. He does get extra credit from some due to moving up and succeeding which is more a P4P thing. He did come from a lighter division and that's damn hard when talking a foray into Heavyweight.

I think future generations will lap it right up. I'm frustrated more fights weren't made but the division has been reasonably strong overall.

It's obvious however you don't want to rate any recent or even most likely future heavyweights. You're going as negative as you can.