If SRR beat Burley or Holman Williams...

1. I suppose it's what you prefer really, by the time Robinson was a fully blown middleweight those fighters had retired pretty much

2. Burley is a counter puncher so boxing in and out using his speed of hand and foot to be first would be the likely strategy. Holman I don't know, he's probably not quite as good.

 

He's still number 1 for me...

 

Maybe.

Where would Burley be ranked if he gotten the chance to fight and beat Robinson?

 

I think he'd have to more than that to overtake Greb. Greb is too much.

Burley would have been a real problem for him. He was supposed to fight Burley circa '46 but demanded $50,000 in the ninth hour -meanwhile he's taking 7 times less than that to face other black fighters who were not so dangerous. Burley would've met him at 152 and I think it would have been a war. Sure, Burley was a counterpuncher who had some off nights, but this one would've been different. I'm not so sure that Robinson, even in his prime, wouldv'e come out on top. Burley's style was very, very difficult to solve, particularly when he was "on" and the opponent was aggressive. He'd catch Robinson coming in and drop him. Stop him? Nah. This one may be 50-50 but I'd throw down whatever I could spare on Burley.

Holman's prime was far earlier than the time he was climbing the rankings. I'd say it was around '41 and he was boxer-puncher then. As a technician, he would have made Ray look pedestrian. Power edge to Ray but remember, Holman was in heavy - Jesserun, Frattini, and Leto who was a beast, and don't forget -Holman was up to his eyebrows in the Row. Robinson had more "names" but back then the names weren't necessarily the best. Don't get me wrong, Robinson was no cherry-picker like Floyd Mayweather ("I don't wanna grow up, I'm a Toys-r-Us kid"); but back then cherry-picking was done in thorn bushes surrounded by moats.

Williams-Robinson, circa 1941-42, go for Williams. He was too good for Robinson. After that, his chances diminish quickly. Robinson would have had to make a fight of it and I'm not convinced that wouldv'e worked. Holman damn-near handled LaMotta and Cerdan and he was long gone by then.

One more... Anyone who read The Beast of Stillman's Gym knows that Lytell and Robinson were scheduled to fight in '45 and then in '49. I think Bert would've taken him, believe it or not. A swarming southpaw who could revert to an outside fighter on wheels who could hit very well and could not be stopped? Robinson barely got by LaMotta, and Lytell was better than LaMotta coming and going -and just as strong/durable. That spells real problems for Sugar Man.

Robinson was smart to avoid all three of them. He'd have had more losses and at least one of them if not two could have taken him in a series, maybe all three had he fought Holman in the early 40s.

Robinson's legacy could have been either derailed or eclipsed. I tend to think it would have been.

 

Well higher and more recognition but the general population but there would be an element of 'beating up on a blown up lightweight/welterweight'

Robinson was a smart businessman, yes he turned Burley down, but it was risk/reward issue and knowing what the fight was worth in comparison to other dangerous fights. 1946 was also ofcourse the year he got his WW title fight, a big chess piece, which he had to maintain his ranking to get. Why fight Burley for 50k when you can fight the champ for 50k and keep the championship sort of thinking. Also Robinson had rarely fought above 147 before this and when he did go upto MW fought 2 life and death fights with Lamotta. It would be normal to think 'I'm best at Welterweight' in such a situation.

1 thing to bare in mind is stylistically Robinson has quite a bit in common with Charles who dominated Burley, ofcourse Charles is bigger than both which would have been an issue. Another is by 1946 Burley was probably declining, but Robinson was still rarely weighing over 147

I see it differently than yourself though, I see it as a technical chess match, the rangier rapid fire combination boxer mover in Robinson versus the perhaps defensively superior counter puncher. How does Burley's low hands hold up against Robinson's quick hands? How does Robinson's lack of head movement hold up against Burley's jab and timing? I see it as akin to Leonard-Benitez and Jones-Toney style wise.

As for Holman versus Lamotta/Cerdan, I've heard conflicting stories on those, some saying Lamotta was dominant.

 

I didn't change my mind. I wavered and waffled and I reserve the right to do so indefinitely, bub. It's a tough call but the more I think about it, the more I lean towards Burley.

I think Holman was that good. Prime for prime with anyone, barring stylistic problems, I always take the superior technician. Holman may have been the best technician ever.

He ran out on a contract. He didn't want to fight the replacement for Gene Buffalo who turned out to be Cocoa Kid. He'd 'a beat Cocoa Kid by then though. I think he would have stopped him. Cocoa Kid was running on fumes and was already in a fog.

Put it this way, when I train young fighters, if they're really good, I tell them they have a chance to be "the next Sugar Ray Robinson." I never tell a kid he can be "the next Harry Greb." Because it would be a damn lie. Greb kills the curve.

 

See, you just hurt my damn feelings because now I know you ain't reading my damn stuff.

That sure is a distinct possibility. Good call with the Charles analogy. Charles was able to outbox Burley in one bout and then turn around and outpunch him in the other. I don't think that Robinson was capable of either --not quite. I'm not sure that Robinson would be playing chess so much as trying to avoid the traps, and Burley's low hands were part of the trap-setting. Those low hands were actually old school at the time, it wasn't a flaw. It's a really, really tough style to deal with.

I see Robinson testing him with some blasts early, falling into traps, and they shying off. Burley could and would be aggressive, despite the fact that there are a lot of fights where he would relax and go rounds when he didn't have to. He had off nights too because he was a tempermental guy who didn't give a damn about "looking good." This wouldn't have been an off night though. I think he'd go after him like he did Moore or Chase. He took every round against Moore and smashed Chase to pieces 2 out of 3 times.

I don't have the reports in front of me but I seem to remember LaMotta taking over early and then looking silly at the end. The crowd booed the decision.

 

I love the guy. I rank him #2 in the modern era. If I was a pagan I'd worship his graven image.

 

Cocoa Kid dropped him and Aaron Wade separated his ribs. You didn't want to fool around with those guys and Robinson's brutality on his sparring partners proved costly against them.

PS/ Robinson isn't stopping Burley. No damn way. Burley went down, what? Once? Lloyd Marshall. Meanwhile, there's big Elmer Ray with birdies over his head in sparring. With big gloves. Robinson is a tough man to stop too, but I think Burley was tougher even than him.

 

Do you mean the KO of Wade? That KO that happened after Wade had been inactive for over 2 years?

He's the best since Greb! Since GREB!!! If he beat Holman and Charley half-blind, then we'd talk!