If SRR beat Burley or Holman Williams...

Grantland Rice was among the many prominent witnesses who was convinced Harry won his second match with Gene. Tunney himself acknowledged this split decision controversially in his favor wasn't a clear victory, and Commissioner William Muldoon deemed the verdict, "unjustifiable."

Fight four in Cleveland was given to Greb 6-3-1 by Stuart M. Bell of the Cleveland Plains Dealer. Jim Jab of the Pittsburgh Press scored Harry the winner 7-3. Zanesville Signal (INS wire) gave it to Greb 5-4-1. Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune/Milwaukee Journal (United News wire) said newpapermen gave Greb "all but the tenth round." This happened less than two months after Gene was filmed beating the **** out of Carp.

Nobody disputes that Tunney took fights three and five decisively. The true winner of the series may well hinge on what actually happened in Cleveland on September 17, 1924, but there is some evidence to suggest Harry indeed carried the rivalry 3-2.

 

:good:good:good

And also consider that he was fighting with one eye and on the downside of his career, while Tunney was still gaining momentum.

 

Did Greb not acknowledge that Tunney was the better of the two.

You can also read reports that Tunney was the better man in the 4th fight. Newspaper reports are a help but hardly gospel.

3 to 1 for Tunney and one fight with conflicting paper reports. :conf


Look Greb is obviously greater than Tunney and Harry is only behind SRR and Hank in my book.

Greb doesn't need to be judged as equalling Tunney in their series and to be honest the only place I have read this opinion has been on ESB. I have also read on ESB that Greb is No.1 P4P which is not a common opinion in books or on other sites.

 

Robinson/greb/fitz
Armstrong/langford

 

Looks like Fitz has gradually moved even further up on your list if I recall correctly, luf. Do you still have Duran inside the top ten? Where's Charles?

 

Well done.

 

And that's not the version to be considered against Robby, it's the two eyed, 25 year old, 45-0-0 monster of 1919 who trashed Brennan in Tulsa (on the very day Dempsey dethroned Willard in Toledo) who I've come to measure against any version of Ray who ever stepped in the ring.

Harry may well have been able to reach Canastota today for just this year alone. Brennan 4X, Miske (IBHOF), McTigue (future World LHW Champion), Battling Levinski (IBHOF) 4X (then at his own peak as World LHW Champion), Mike Gibbons (IBHOF), Jeff Smith (potential IBHOFer, something that for some "mysterious" reason I suspect wouldn't surprise you in the slightest), Leo Houck (IBHOF), Wiggins 2X (Chuck himself went 8-2 in 1919, and got the better of Moha that year, as well as winning twice over 20 rounds in Sydney, the second time being over Kid Lloyd), Meehan, Bartfield, Clay Turner.... These weren't exactly tomato cans he was knocking off during that torrid 1919 campaign.

Of course this is all ancient news to guys like yourself, Burt and Stoney (news that contributors like the three of you have actually helped to create), but posters challenging Greb's stature here desperately need to consider carefully exactly what they are questioning. A number of us here were independently arriving at the same conclusion about placing Harry over Robby simultaneously. Fans who have always taken SRR as the all time P4P top man for granted need to be prepared to chisel away at that engraved impression with an open mind

 

I can go to sleep happy now, to have been awarded such flattery from you and Surf-Bat on the same page of this thread. (But I'll still need 20 mg Ambien tonight to knock myself out!)

 

Oh, come off it Lester. You say that every time. :rofl

Personally, I'd love it if Duo or Stonehands could pin down the exact ratings at the time but fighters in Robinson's day were simply too active. As it stands, this is a partial list of fighters who were rated either going into or at the year end of when Robinson fought them. The list of those who were in the top ten at one time or another is obviously far greater.

07/41: Sammy Angott (#1 LW) @ 135
10/41: Fritzie Zivic (#3 WW)
01/42: Fritzie Zivic (#3 WW)
03/42: Norman Rubio (#10 WW)
07/42: Sammy Angott (LW Champ) @ 147
08/42: Tony Mutisi (#9 WW)
10/42: Jake LaMotta (#6 MW)
10/42: Izzy Jannazzo (#8 WW)
12/42: Izzy Jannazzo (#8 WW)
02/43: Jake LaMotta (#2 MW)
02/43: Jackie Wilson (#3 WW)
02/43: Jake LaMotta (#2 MW)
08/43: Henry Armstrong (#1 WW 1944)
10/44: Izzy Jannazaro (#8 WW)
09/45: Jake LaMotta (#2 MW)
03/46: Sammy Angott (#8 WW)
12/46: Tommy Bell (World WW Championship)
05/47: Georgie Abrams (#5 MW)
06/47: Jimmy Doyle (#7 WW)
06/48: Bernard Docusen (#3 WW)
09/48: Kid Gavilan (#1 WW) @ 150+
07/49: Kid Gavilan (#1 WW)
08/49: Steve Belloise (#2 MW)
04/50: Ray Barnes (#7 MW)
06/50: Robert Villemain (#3 MW)
08/50: Charley Fusari (#3 WW)
02/51: Jake LaMotta (World MW Champion)
07/51: Randy Turpin (#1 MW)
09/51: Randy Turpin (World MW Champion)
03/52: Carl Olson (#2 MW)
04/52: Rocky Graziano (#10 MW)
06/52: Joey Maxim (World LHW Champion)
07/55: Ralph Castellani (#2 MW)
12/55: Carl Olson (World MW Champion)
05/56: Carl Olson (#1 MW)
01/57: Gene Fullmer (#1 MW)
05/57: Gene Fullmer (World MW Champion)
09/57: Carmen Basilio
03/58: Carmen Basilio (World MW Champion)

The Greatest To Ever Lace Up Gloves

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. :hi:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60GuoYpmbJo[/ame]

 

Fitz used to be number 1. Robinson and greb have been promoted.

Both make my top ten, yeah.

 

The Ring didn't start ranking fighters on a monthly basis until ~May 1928, and Greb was dead.

While I understand that the IBHOF catches some hell for good reason for recent inductees, it can serve as something of a measure when looking at greatness, particularly when looking at past fighters because they only have history on their side -not sentiment.

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Let me say again that I was a true believer from adolescence until about 5 years ago in Robinson as the P4P best of the modern era (which began in 1920). I have a good friend of mine, a trainer who used to hook school to watch fight films and sit in libraries to read Liebling and Plimpton who has a damn tattoo saying the same. I changed my mind -he did too. An excerpt from "The God of War" begins to answer why...

Greb turned professional in 1913, when boxing wished it could crawl up from the cesspit into the red-light district. Hell-raisers like Battling Nelson and Ad Wolgast fought that year, after going 40 rounds in perhaps the most vicious brawl of the 20th century. Leather mittens, no groin protectors, no mouth guards, 20 rounds –there were few cuties in the sport during those days.

Greb came out of that era, enduring hardships that would dissuade many boxers today from leaving the dressing room.

Earlier in his career, Greb was kneed to the genitals during a bout and had to be carried from the ring; he was once assaulted by a corner man, and bitten on the glove by a frustrated opponent who plum ran out of ways to cope with his windmill attack. Another opponent’s teeth missed his glove and clamped on his arm. A headcase entered the ring with a live boa constrictor draped around his neck and then proceeded to aim for his eyes with both thumbs. He fought with a broken bone in his right hand and a broken arm five fights later. In 1916 he fought the second round against Kid Graves after the radius in his left arm had been broken in half. He couldn’t continue, but won that round.

The year after he faced Kid Norfolk in Boston, he fought not only his opponent but the referee as well. The referee was Marvin Hart –former world heavyweight champion. Greb got himself arrested and fined $100.

Trolling three divisions looking for fights over a 13-year career, he got them, 300 of them. That’s 2,595 professional rounds –three times as many as Roberto Duran, and more than Julio Cesar Chavez, Oscar De La Hoya, Pernell Whitaker, Ray Leonard, Larry Holmes, and Lennox Lewis combined. The heads that sat on his mantle included approximately 12 world champions, 19 title-holders, and 13 inductees of the International Boxing Hall of Fame..."

............
Never mind the fact that it is not unlikely that he took the series against Tunney, beat the hell out of a prime Dempsey twice in sparring matches that were nothing of the sort, and routinely picked on heavyweights, and you get the idea. Never mind the fact that he went 45-0 in one year (Floyd looks like even more of a jerk-off when you think about that) and was disabled for his last ~40 fights.

This is more than enough to get him over the great Sugar Ray; but what puts a period on it for me is one fight: Norfolk-Greb II, which he lost by DQ. Greb was the middleweight champion of the world and had no reason to fight a light heavyweight beast like Norfolk, yet he did. Norfolk was ranked at #3 among light heavies in '24. Greb beat something like 7 of the 10 of them as well as 3 of 1924's top 10 heavyweights.

... Robinson can't overtake this. I really don't think there is anything else to say about it.

 

& the sad thing is if you head over to the general forum hardly anyone knows anything about him!!

 

I've read your (entire) series multiple times. Brilliant stuff. :deal

I don't consider Robinson's resume greater than Greb's (and stated as much in this thread), as that isn't a debate that'll be won. Only that it stands amongst the greatest ever as part of his case in addition to what there is of him demostrating his abilities in the ring as well as - in response to the quoted - him doing plenty enough without having to fight Charley Burley.

 

Well, given that, we can at least agree that Sugar Ray Robinson is the greatest fighter that -anyone alive- has ever seen. How 'bout that?