If there hadn't been the colour line in the 1910s and 1920s?

Here we go....Harry Wills replaces Holmes' jab for flavour of the month.

 

I dont think Johnson would hold on to the title until 1919. There was a reason why Willard pull it off vs a 37 year old Johnson in 1915. Johnson was not in his prime. Still a good fighter, but a far cry from the guy he was in 1908.

If Not Willard, I pretty sure any one else in the elite would have done the job.

 

To extend the idea further, I think that Peter Jackson would almost certainly have been champion at some point in the late 1800s with no colour bar.

Jeffries would have defended his title against Denver Ed Martin but he would almost certainly have beaten him.

I think that whether Jack Johnson had beaten Jim Jeffries or not he would have been the next champion after Jeffries retired. In this scenario Hart and Burns would probably never have held the title.

I also think that Johnson would probably have lost his title to either Sam Langford or Joe Jeanette before Willard got to him. In this scenario the title probably changes hands a few times, and we might have a couple more black champions and perhaps another white one.

Harry Wills would probably have held the title before Jack Dempsey in this scenario, and it would be he and not Willard who Dempsey would have faced off against in Toledo.

Jack Dempsey would presumably have been champion at some point but he would have fought one or more of Wills, Godfrey, Norfolk and Tate.

Gene Tunney would probably have won the title at some point but when he retired George Godfrey would have been in the elimination tournament to find his sucessor.

 

I like Jack Johnson over Langford in 1911. Too much countering ability and muscle for Langford.

 

If what you say is true, then it seems that evidence suggests that Lanford would have dropped the title to McVey in December 1911 (pretty short reign). Presumably win it back in 1912. I wonder if he would have still Drawn with Colin Bell (or dropped a hometown decision, or been finished over the top of in a longer fight) or even with Jerry Jerome? Then in 1913 he would lose the title to Gunboat Smith! Gunboat himself to then lose it to Georges Carpentier who has a break during the war.

That is certainly what actual results suggest happened. In all honesty, there is no real reason to suggest that Johnson drops a fight to anybody, no matter who he fought. He was a class above the rest and while inactivity (much of this due to the colour line) slowed him down, it was always going to take a major upset like willard to get him. I think Johnson KOs Langford early to end off his challenge. But ends up dropping the title to either Wills or Willard at around about the same time. Difference being that he does get a rematch and does win it back, probably holding it until Dempsey, but who knows without the inactivity of prison, he may just have ruled as long as he liked and held the belt longer than Joe Louis.

 

Why would having no color line help Johnson beat Willard? Willard knocked Johnson out legitimately, unless you think he threw that fight, in which case this fantasy thread has taken on a whole new level of fantasy. That said if you are arguing that Johnson would keep the title until 1919 (which I dont see him doing) you could also argue that Wills could have defeated Johnson for the title prior to 1919 and/or defeated dempsey prior to the title or successfully defended against Dempsey for the title. I think Johnson whips Burns in '08 hangs on to the title until 1915 (I could possibly see him losing to Langford in 1913) loses to Willard who then loses to either Dempsey or Wills in 1919. If Wills gets to Willard first I see him successfully defending against Dempsey and holding onto the title until 1926 losing either to Tunney or Sharkey. Now, this is interesting because based on one fight you could entirely erase the history and legacy of Dempsey (who many consider the greatest HW champ). I think this is a pretty good illustration of why Dempsey is overrated.

 

If Gunboat Smith had been coming into the Carpentier fight as HW champ he would have been much more protected against the homecooking that saw Carpentier win by dubious DQ against Smith. In that situation I think the greater scrutiny would have seen Smith either KO Carpentier or win on a DQ (which is how Carpentier tended to lose when he was on the verge of a stoppage).

re: homecooking- yes i know it took place in London and Carp was a frog but he was also the popular fighter in europe and arguably britain at the time. the british were as crazy about carp as anyone and carp was definately the favorite with the london crowd.

 

How would Dempsey's legacy look if he had beaten Harry Wills instead of Willard to win the title, in exactly the same manner. Probably not as good, imo, (to most people) because Wills was less impressive physically.

 

:huh:huh:huh It would look MUCH better. He would have a win over a big, young, fast, powerful, athletic ATG heavwyeight compared to a win over an old inactive farm boy.

 

You are right, of course, but who would his defences be?

Dont Forget that when champions win the title, they also as a general rule lose dedication. Meaning they perform less than impressive. Realistically, (and it is all totally hypothetical), if he wins in 1911, he tours with exhibitions for a year, Probably taking a match against a less than stellar first up opponent. A No Decision 10 rounder with Jerry Jerome fits the bill?

Then, perhaps he follows it with a defence against local hope Colin Bell? a 15 round draw? AFter this lackluster showing, the pressure must be on for Lanford Johnson III. Can anyone really see a less than perfect Langford doing much against a focused and hungry Johnson? If Lanford did win the title, i cant see how it was destined to be anything but a short and unspectacular reign.

 

That is how i would see it.

I wouldnt mind betting most of todays internet critics see him as stopping an overated challenger who was Kod twice by Sam Langford and stopped in 2 against Jim Johnson (neither of whom presumably was good enough to win world championships). Nothing special or out of the ordinary in what he did.