If there was no color line, who would be champ 1910-1937?

Excellent points! How would Johnson have performed had he been able to make a permanent base in his own country instead of being harassed and harried halfway around the world for having s*x with very willing white women that he eventually married?

Johnson in his prime beats Willard like a drum, like he did for the first 15 rounds of their actual fight.
He doesn't succumb to fatigue , he gets Willard out of there. Johnson in his prime beats the three black fighters that he badly outclassed when ALL OF THEM INCLUDING HIMSELF WERE PRE PRIME.


NB You cant use the word s*x?atsch

 

I think Johnson motivated and in shape reigns for a very long time and easily dispatches Dempsey and Tunney before being stopped by baer or any other contender due to pure age. You can make a case for Johnson being the number 1 all time, but that's just my opinion

 

Johnson's reign would have been unaltered IMO. I dont think Langford, McVey, or Jeanette beat him as champion. I think Langford clearly deserved a shot and was clearly the best choice but I think he might also have been the easiest for Johnson physically and stylistically.

 

the biggest question would be Jack D, although he started out ambitiously, was an accident waiting to happen after a few years of inactive staardom. Someone would have ended his reign earlier if he'd taken opponent choice seriously - though getting beat by the guy from the division down at the age of 30 isn't anything to be proud of. Someone like Godfrey, amongst others would have handled poor longevity Jack.

Of course this by definition means tunney might not get his shot, nor his stay as champion, but that no fault of tunneys.

 

Well it is true, so why dont you believe it?

 

Because he actually beat the best HW fighters he faced.

 

is it the same reason why you wont get off johnsons back?

 

I think the situation in the 1920's and 1930's would have been so different it is hard to speculate on what would have happened.

Top American black heavyweight boxers:

born 1878 to 1889--Johnson, Jeannette, Langford, McVea, Wills

born 1911 to 1921--Ray, Walcott, Louis, Franklin, Moore, Murray, Thompson, Bivins, Charles

born 1890 to 1910--only two, Kid Norfolk (1895) and George Godfrey (1897)

the 20 year post Johnson era until the rise of Louis was a void in the heavyweight division as regards black contenders. Wills had established himself while Johnson was still champion. Only Norfolk (who was really a light-heavy) and Godfrey could be considered serious contenders (and some might not consider Norfolk a heavy contender).

What happened?

Well, I think the color line became so imposing that even getting into boxing, getting decent training, getting any kind of fights with any kind of purses, getting a fight w/o wearing the cuffs or taking a dive, was such that any young American black man with any other option at all took that option.

The color line had always been there to a degree, but now it became overwhelming.

*Larry Gains, a Canadian who did the bulk of his fighting in Canada, Britain, and Europe, was also a contender in the late twenties and early thirties.

**Langford was not born in America, but seems to have mainly fought in America early in his career.

 

I question the position that Johnson would have stayed champion for an extended period beyond the years he was champion.

He was 37 when he lost to Willard,

and after 1910 did not defeat that many top men.

Flynn in 1912 and Moran in 1914.

It is true he was undefeated for more than a decade after the Willard fight, but his best opponents were Roper, Cowler, Homer Smith, and Lester, all journeymen.

That he would have been up to beating guys like Dempsey, Wills, or Fulton, among others, is a shot in the dark.

 

I think Johnson was essentially done after Willard.
Whether different racial strictures would have changed things is a moot point?

 

I would say that Cowler was somewhat better than a journeyman, but your wider point stands.

 

Great post. Seems highly plausible to me that there would have seen a massive influx of black American talent if not for the racism and white supremacy of that era. Especially after the Great Migration of blacks from the south to the northern cities in the early 20th century. In fact, I wonder if the demographic turnover that seems to have become pretty evident by the 1950s would have occurred decades earlier.