IF THERE WAS NO HAGLER?

I was a big fan of Sibson, and I can certainly see him winning the title in Hagler’s absence but it’s difficult to back him over a sustained period.
As mentioned previous he blew hot and cold,on his good nights when fully motivated for a fight he could be absolutely devastating, then if less motivated he could lack intensity and look ordinary.

 

If Marvin Hagler never boxed then would John Mugabi never have been tamed or would it have happenned years later?

I don't think Sugar Ray ever comes back if it weren't to pursue the fight with Marvin so thats leaves quite a bit open.

I don't knowwho would be the dominant middleweight but John Mugabi would've had a good shot as would have McCallum, although he was late 80s if I recall correcttly, Iran Barkely, if he could've stayed focused, maybe Kulambay or Hears; but Tommy's chin was just too suspect to think he would've had a long reign.

 

I also think that John Mugabi just might catch Tommy early and if that happened, it would be over quick with Tommy getting KOed.

 

I see Mugabi is still one of ESB's most overrated boxers. Perennially (massively) rated on his efforts in a loss as he never actually beat anyone notable. As impressive as he looked against Hagler a lot of extenuating factors were involved and he never proved he could actually beat top 10 contenders let alone champs. Picking him against a Hearns is a huge leap of faith and i reckon Hearns would get him out of there pronto. He somehow gets a complete pass for everything post Hagler and was almost stopped by James Green of all people not that long prior. Great puncher but we have seen any amount of these exposed throughout boxing history.

Having said that he may have been able to jag a title at some point but all the moons would have to align - weaker or suited champ, Mugabi still undefeated, etc. He could possibly win a shootout on his best night and there would likely be plenty of weaker type champs to fight. Noway would he have any length to his reign tho.

I'll have a think about what might have transpired and post again.

 

What were those factors ?

 

Without Hagler, I suspect the titles would have splintered along the way, sooner than they did in Hagler's hands. The IBF came along in 1983 so that might lead to 3 titlists sooner than it did too.

Lots of fighters could have reigned as champions.

Look at what happened post-Hagler-Leonard.
There was Frank Tate, Sumbu Kalambay, Thomas Hearns, Michael Nunn, Iran Barkley, Roberto Duran, Mike McCallum all holding titles within a 2 year period of SRL's retirement.
*(two of those seven had previously failed to dethrone Hagler).

If Hagler hadn't existed maybe 5 to 10 fighters would have held 'world titles' at middleweight in the 1980 to 1986 years, and probably many of them would be regarded as better than they are regarded now.

 

No, he was a legitimate threat

He simply blew away Curtis Parker, and nobody else ever did that except Michael Nunn in Parker's very last fight five years later.

He tested a Hagler who was still very good, if not prime, in a very grueling fight for both guys. It wasn't like Hagler was shot or even badly faded.

Where Hearns lacked the resilency to go deep with Hagler, Mugabi traded with him for 10 plus rounds before a combination of exhaustion and an accumulation of shots, did him in.

There is reason to believe, given Hearn's history of lacking resilecny, that Mugabi, with his strength, aggression and power, was a legitimate threat to him, either at 154 lbs. or 160 lbs.

That said, would Mugabi have dominated in the absence of Hagler, for any period of time. I say no. He had weaknesses, such as mediocre defense and less than elite stamina.

But he had the right strengths, combined with Hearn's weaknesses, to have a good shot of beating Hearns.

Mugabi, while competitive, did sustain some serious damage against Hagler, and did not appear to ever reach that level again.

He rates quite highly up through the Hagler war.

 

.

 

JT,

Considering how faded you believe Hagler was for the Mugabi fight, how good do you think SRL's win over Hagler was (I know you have SRL winning that one) ..... that's another 13 months of inactivity, PLUS the possible effects of the Mugabi war (more depleting that Hearns fight, I'd say ?) .... that'll be one hell of a faded Hagler !
"Shot" even ?

 

Well faded not shot and Leonard had 3 yrs of inactivity (Just 1 fight in over 5 yrs) leading into the Hagler fight. Hagler tho fading was at least fighting and on top of this SRL was a natural welterweight so if anything Leonard was much more up against it hence him being about 5-1.

I think Leonards win was fantastic all factors considered.

 

Haglers inactivity, training mishap and rescheduling, peak quotient.

 

I don't see it. I see the Mugabi Hagler fight as Hagler being rusty, and what did Tommy do to the guys Marvin would go rounds with. he usually knocked them out. Geraldo, Roldan, Duran.

 

Hagler. He was rusty and had not fought in one year practically. His punches were not straight and he was rusty. He didn't look great.

 

If there was no Hagler, Mustafa Hamsho would've won the middleweight title from Alan Minter in late 1980/early 1981. He would've held the title for four or five years, defending in rematches with Scypion and Parker, Antuofermo, Obel, Benitez, Czyz, Roldan ... earning the rep as a middleweight version of Matthew Saad Muhammad ... just all blood, guts and excitement.

The Brits may have gotten him stripped for not fighting Tony Sibson. Sibson would've won a vacant title.

Hamsho would've had a bloody reign until Hearns moved up and knocked him out in 85 or 86. Then Hearns would've fought Mugabi, and they may have had a few fights (Foreman-Lyle-like wars). Hamsho may have then gone over to England and challenged Sibson for his belt, losing. Hearns and Sibson then unify around late 86 or early 87.

And Hamsho would've retired with one or two losses without moving up to light heavy, and Hamsho would be in the Hall of Fame.

Yep, that's exactly what would've happened. (Probably)

 

Mugabi was hugely ovverated...ko magazine just before the thomas fight had him number 3 pound for pound....above hearns!

Mugabi looked impressive on nbc destroying the divisions second tier also rans...the parkers the greens...granted the mw division saw a drop off in quality during 83-86(big four notwithstanding)...but mugabi never beat anyone top 12...his hype would have been far more deserved had he brutally kayoed a roldan,a shuler or don lee...as it is he looked and fought the part with hagler and i respect him hugely...but tommy hearns was going to knock him out fast ...not too disamilar to how mclellan and norris took care of a shot mugabi.

Id suggest hearns had a decent even good chin prior to 1988 .he put it on the line with hagler and took shots that would have finished other mws before succumbing,he held his chin out for andries and roldan two punchers and withstood pretty well against strong punchers...but he went to the well too often and he had weakened his chin from the hagler fight and the 3 following years with his gung ho style until his chin totally failed him in 1988-89 before he took remedial action......

Yet his chin is always judged 1987-1989 rather than 1977-84 and 1990-1993 where he showed a good set of whiskers