If this forum were around in 2000-2001 everyone would Lewis after his KO loss to Rahman

Terror, everything is fine, I understand it, but don't tell me that he won against everyone who went into the ring with him, but tell me which of his victories you put higher than those of Frazier, Liston, Tyson, Holy, Norton, Bowe. Larry Holmes, at the age of 42, beat Ray Mercer much easier than Prime Lewis did and Larry Holmes never lost in his prime to someone like McCall, much less not that easily, and yet you put him above Larry, why? Really for Briggs, who was unable to defeat 50-year-old Foreman in a previous fight? for the boring fight with Holyfield, who was later beaten by John Ruiz? so what if Holy was considered the best in the world in 1999, it only shows how bad that time was, since Vaughn Bean and John Ruiz were able to compete with the best in the world. I don't really understand your arguments, but I'm glad you're trying to at least present them

 

I have posted my top 10 and reasons for it a few times, I kind of laid out how I feel for the most part in this thread. I have him above some guys who couldn't beat him, have worse losses, or thinner resumes essentially. It's my list, I enjoy boxing, and I like to play the hypothetical game of "rate the historical fighters". My top 5 would offend a lot of people as it is Ali, Holmes, Lennox, Foreman, Louis/Holyfield depending on the day. I'm pushing my vanguard of "the way I see it". They all have valid claims to be there among head-to-head, physical dimensions, strength of performances, strength of competition, and the general perception of boxing and boxers at the times they fought.

He factually beat everyone he stepped in the ring against. Holyfield was still a megastar in the public's eye despite his lackluster performance against Bean, it doesn't mean he was actually the best, but he was who had to be beaten to take the titles and that's what was done. He was clearly on the downslide. You can play these games against Joe Louis much easier, and Larry Holmes even easier than that. The 90s had tons of talent. Lennox had a close fight with Mercer, and I say, so what? Mercer was a hell of a fighter who could give anyone troubles on his best night. If you don't understand, that's fine. Everyone has their own opinion and that's why we post on here.

 

your arguments only convince me to my opinion but ok everyone has their own opinion, best regards

 

That's hilarious. No, I didn't take it as a slight. Loved the description, by the way.

Time does fly.

 

In his last amateur fight, Lennox Lewis won the gold medal at the Olympics by stopping the future Hall of Fame World Champion Riddick Bowe.

In his last pro fight, Lennox Lewis stopped the future Hall of Fame World Heavyweight Champion Vitali Klitschko.

In between those two fights, Lewis beat every man who stepped in the ring with him. Those included Vitali Klitschko, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, Hasim Rahman, Ray Mercer, Tommy Morrison, Frank Bruno, Shannon Briggs, Andrew Golota, Oliver McCall, Tony Tucker, Razor Ruddock, Gary Mason, Mike Weaver, Henry Akinwande, David Tua and Frans Botha, among others.

I believe he beat 14 reigning, former or future heavyweight and cruiserweight champs.

His fight with Mike Tyson was one of the largest selling PPVs in boxing history to that point (and remains so).

Lennox is fifth all time in total heavyweight title defenses. He retired as world champion

He was a first-ballot Hall of Famer.

There's no argument he's among the best ever. The only question is whether he was THE BEST ever.

Joe Louis didn't go to the Olympics, let alone beat a future hall of fame world heavyweight champ in the finals. Joe Louis didn't beat everyone he faced as a pro. Joe Louis didn't retire on top and end his career stopping a future hall of fame world champ in his last fight. Neither did Larry Holmes.

Ali went to the Olympics, but he didn't beat a future hall of fame world champ in the finals, he didn't beat everyone he fought as a pro, or retire on top beating a future hall of fame world heavyweight champ in his last fight. Neither did Wlad.

What Lennox accomplished was amazing.

Whether he was as popular as others, or whether people got it at the time or not, doesn't matter. The facts speak for themselves.

 

This is what I write about all the time, Lewis' career is impressive on paper, everyone who watched him in the ring knows that he wasn't that impressive, that's why Lewis gets more recognition 20 years after his career ended, not when we had it fresh in our minds or watched it live . Recently, a question was asked why Lennox was underestimated when he was fighting, so I say - because his CV looks better than it actually is! You write that Lewis defeated Bowe and Vitali. Have you watched these fights? Yes, I know that Lewis didn't look impressive in them, the result is impressive, but he was simply weaker than Vitali and was beaten terribly. he wasn't a great boxer in that fight, but people who didn't watch it think it was a success and that's what it says on his CV. Why do you think winning against Bowe at the Olympics was a great success? Bowe, unlike his rival Ali at the Olympics, was not a great amateur boxer!! Pietrzykowski was the best amateur LHW and the main favorite for the gold medal. He was 25 years old and in his prime, and 18-year-old Ali won with him. And sorry, Pietrzykowski couldn't have been the future ATG because a Pole couldn't have been a professional in 1960 didn't you know? Lewis in Seoul was 23 years old, he had been fighting in SHW since 1982, it was his second Olympics because he lost to Tyrell Biggs at the first one (does that mean, in your opinion, Biggs was better than Ali because he defeated the future ATG and Ali didn't?) and Bowe was 21 years and 3 years before the Olympic Games he fought in... LHW!! This is a huge difference!! and the fight itself was a fake, Bowe easily won the first round and in the second round a biased referee stopped the fight after a few punches from Lennox, which was ridiculous. Knowing Riddick's ability to regenerate, the interruption was nonsense, in fact in the fights with Holy and Golota, with such refereeing, Riddick would have only suffered defeats ahead of time. Moreover, Cubans who dominated in amateur rings did not fight in Seoul. And although 1988 was a crisis for the Cuban SHW because Stevenson ended his career and Balado had not developed yet, the leader of the Cuban team - JL Gonzales easily defeated both Lewis and Bowe, but he could not go to the Olympic Games because Cubans did not take part in them. Thus, Gonzo defeated two future ATGs in one fell swoop, so was he better than Ali?
Truly, every time Lewis is discussed, I see more and more how shallow his admirers' arguments are and how terribly wrong they are, every time, my friend. this is mind-blowing

 

Lewis's decision to retire at the right time realistically shouldn't impact his legacy much, Lots of guys would look better had they retired earlier.

 

But they didn't. Wouldas don't exist.

 

I watched his entire career live. I watched the Olympic final live. I watched his final fight live. I attended the Lewis-Tua fight.

You're making zero sense and sound like someone who came to this late in the game.

Jorge Luis Gonzales wasn't better than Lewis. Lennox beat him a week after the Pan Am games in Toronto at the North American championships. (Did you know that? Doesn't sound like it.) Jorge wouldn't even have made it to the Olympics if Cuba had gone because he lost twice in the weeks before the Olympics (to a fellow Cuban and Ulli Kaden - who Lewis demolished in one round at the Games). And Jorge sure as hell wasn't a better pro.

Also, Riddick Bowe tore through the Olympics and made it to the final. Did you watch the 1988 Olympics? I taped it live. Bowe was in a contest with his roommate Ray Mercer to see who could knock the most people out. (Did you know that?) Bowe was a monster at the 1988 Olympics.

Do you know how many future Hall of Fame world heavyweight champions have beaten another future Hall of Fame World Heavyweight Champ in the Olympic final? I'll give you a hint. It's only happened once. And Lennox Lewis was the gold medal winner.

And you can't do much better than actually beating every man you fought as a pro. That's kind of the objective. And it's not like he didn't fight and beat practically every name of his era.

Also, Lewis wasn't "weaker" than Vitali. He tore the whole goddmamn side of his face off (looked like the Zapruder film, for Christ's sake.). The fight was stopped after six rounds. Vitali needed 60 stitches to close the cuts. It was Lennox's last fight. Vitali was in his prime. Vitali sure as hell didn't stop Lennox.

Do you know how many times a future Hall of Fame World Heavyweight Champion stopped another future Hall of Fame World Heavyweight Champion in his final fight and retired on top? I'll give you a hint. It's only happened once. And Lennox Lewis was the winner.

Ask any fighter whose career they'd rather have?

Would they prefer to beat a future Hall of Fame world heavyweight champion in the Olympic Final for the gold medal? I'm sure most would say yes. Would they prefer to beat every man they face as a pro? I'm sure most would say yes. Would they prefer to retire as the reigning world champion and go out on top? I'm sure most would say yes. Would they prefer to beat another future hall of fame World heavyweight champ in that final fight ... stopping him no less? I'm sure most would say hell yes. Would they prefer to retire with tens of millions in the bank and with all their marbles? Yes, of course.

Well, that's what Lewis did.

Or would they rather have Muhammad Ali's career and wind up losing to a six-win pro, getting beaten up in an old baseball park in the Bahamas where they don't even have a ring bell, so they have to use a cowbell, and suffering the effects of all the blows he took for the rest of his life?

Or would they rather be Joe Louis, and end up getting punched out of the ring in your last fight, retiring dead broke, being forced to wrestle for money, shooting heroin, and getting wheeled out at ringside for fights for the appearance fee and pissing all over yourself while you're sitting there?

EVERYONE would want Lennox Lewis' career. It's a high bar. It's the goal. Win the Gold. Win against everyone as a pro. Retire on top filthy rich as the reigning champ. And if you can beat two future Hall of Fame heavyweight champs to win the gold and cap your career, only better.

 

The other thing Lennox did was to go into the lions den numerous times. By far, way more than other champions. And he really didn't have to---he could have not signed for those fights & been like tons of other fighters the last 40 years.

But he gets zero credit for it. Incredible.

 

That's why every subsequent discussion about Lennox Lewis proves to me how weak his admirers' arguments are. Once again - you write that Lewis won at the Olympics against future ATG Riddick Bowe and Muhammed Ali did not do it. Meanwhile, it does not matter at all because 18-year-old beginner Ali won against the best amateur boxer in his category and a star of amateur rings, and Lennox won against a beginner in this weight category, Riddick Bowe, who was a nobody in 1988, just a talented amateur but even much worse than his rival 18 summer Ali in 1960. You write that Ali did not win against ATG at the Olympics, completely ignoring the fact that his rival could not have been ATG because he never became a professional boxer. This completely discredits this argument but for many fans who are not aware of this it is - wooow, impressive!! They don't know but what about you? Did you not know or did I hide it?
Jorge Gonzales was actually not an outstanding amateur nor was he an outstanding professional but in prestigious amateur matches he won against the future ATG Lewis and Bowe although I agree with you that he was not even the best Cubans, he was certainly much weaker than Balado, Savon, Stevenson but whether does that mean that according to your logic I should rank him higher than Ali, who did not win against ATG? everything you write about shows very well how beautiful the cover of the book about Lewis is and how empty it is inside, how shallow his fans judge him and how little information they have

 

My argument is LOOK what Lewis accomplished!

I have no idea what your argument is. "What if Ali's opponent in the 1960 Olympic final turned pro, too?" If he had, maybe he'd have been a world heavyweight champ, too?

What exactly is your point? Talk about shallow, you just seem to be throwing out "what ifs."

WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED?

You're completely ignoring the fact that Riddick Bowe DID dominate in the 1988 Olympics and DID become a Hall of Fame World Heavyweight Champion. Instead, you want to talk about what if the Polish silver medalist turned pro, too?

Do you think Zbigniew Pietrzykowski was going to turn pro and, in 1963 or 1964, beat Sonny Liston or Ali for the World heavyweight title if he had?

Do you think Zbigniew Pietrzykowski was going to be World Heavyweight champ and beat everyone he faced as a pro and get inducted into the Hall of Fame, too?

Well, he didn't.

And the days of fantasizing that all these Cuban heavyweights were going to turn pro and dominate has kinda been buried under what actually happened when Cuban heavyweights did turn pro and didn't win crap, like Jorge Luis Gonzalez.

The BOOK of Lennox Lewis is filled with ACTUAL WINS over ACTUAL people.

I never heard a more lame or SHALLOW excuse against Lewis as yours. It's based on nothing factual. And all make believe.

If Zbigniew Pietrzykowski, who Ali beat in the finals, had turned pro and beat Liston or Ali or Frazier and become a World Heavyweight Champion and a Hall of Famer, if Ali had beaten everyone he fought as a pro, if Ali had demolished world champ and hall of famer Larry Holmes, tore his face off and stopped him in six, and then Ali didn't fight Berbick and instead Ali retired RICH and spent his retirement suffering no ill effects from his career ...

Ali would definitely be in the running for best career. No doubt.

BUT, he didn't. Those things didn't happen.

Lewis accomplished those things.

Lennox Lewis did.

 

my argument is that the fact that Riddick Bowe was a future professional world champion in 1988 is irrelevant because Lewis beat him in 1988 when Riddick was a nobody, not when Riddick was a champion!! If today you beat a 15-year-old who starts boxing and in 15 years he will be a champion, will it be some kind of sports achievement? 18-year-old Ali beat the best amateur in the world, Lewis beat a guy who only a few years later became the professional world champion, so what does it matter? Jorge Lewis Gonzales who, as you yourself stated, was not a great boxer, beat both Lewis and Bowe, two future world champions. I understand that, therefore, he should be placed higher than Ali, who beat Pietrzykowski?
This is exactly the assessment of Lewis by his fans. Not to mention the fact that the Bowe-Lewis fight at the Olympics was not very reliable and its result is highly far-fetched. Tko in 2 looks much better on paper than it did in reality and Riddick was not a great amateur boxer.

 

Riddick Bowe wasn't a nobody. He was as accomplished or MORE accomplished than George Foreman and Joe Frazier were when they made it to the Olympic Final, they just didn't meet Lennox Lewis when they got there.

And Zbigniew Pietrzykowski wasn't the best amateur in the world. He never won the amateur World Championships or the Olympics.

He was the best boxer from Poland, so he went to three Olympics representing Poland and never won gold. His fight with Ali was his highest finish. He won bronze the other two times he tried. He just had a good draw in 1960 and didn't have to fight Ali before the final.

And when you're rating fighters ALL TIME, no matter how you paint it, beating Bowe (or Foreman or Frazier) in an Olympic final is more impressive than beating the best light heavyweight from Poland, who never won **** as a pro.

And you keep bringing up the Jorge Gonzalez fight like it is relevent to anything. It was a year before the Olympics, and Lewis beat Gonzales a week later. Gonzalez wouldn't have been on the 1988 Olympic team even if Cuba went. He lost in the Cuban tournament to a Cuban just before the Olympics. Gonzalez lost to Ulli Kaden from Germany just before the Olympics. Lewis destroyed Kaden. Lewis beat Bowe. Lewis won the gold.

You can't even name someone viable who would've beat Lewis or Bowe in 1988. You just run them down. But they both cruised to the finals, and they both turned pro, they both became World Heavyweight Champion and they are both Hall of Famers.

And it's a big deal historically that Lewis beat him in the Olympic Final.

I'm going to bed now.