If Vitali Klitschko enters the top 10 ATG, does that force Lewis to #3?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Jersey Joe, Sep 2, 2010.


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  1. Jersey Joe

    Jersey Joe Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I think most people are agreed that the current heavyweight crop is not very good outside the Klitschkos. However, it can't be denied that they, especially Vitali, have pretty much dominated the scene in recent years.

    Other fighters like Marciano and arguably Dempsey and Tyson made their reputations by dominating a weak division. So with someone like Vitali I'm not sure you can keep him outside the bottom of the top 10 just on the old-fashioned "who did he fight?" argument. The fact is, apart from the Lewis fight and a shoulder injury (which can happen to anyone), he's won all his fights, and won almost all of them in dominant fashion, not losing many rounds at all.

    The more I look at it, the more Lennox's win in his final fight stands out as a significant achievement. Usually in boxing, it's the up and coming dominant fighter who beats the older champion if and when the two meet. Johnson Jeffries, Marciano Louis, Ali Liston etc. You could even throw in Tyson Holmes and Holmes Ali there. Whereas with Vitali, Lewis basically stopped him in 6 in a close fight.

    If Vitali beats Briggs and doesn't lose again until retirement, Lewis will be one of only 2 guys who beat him, and the one who beat him the most clearly (i.e. stoppage from punch damage, whereas with the Byrd fight we don't really know what caused the shoulder injury, Byrd is not really known for his power).

    This will then add another very impressive scalp to Lewis's already impressive list of top-quality opponents. He already has one from the top 10 (Tyson) but Mike was past his best when they met; Vitali on the other hand was in his prime and it was Lewis who was way past his best...yet Lennox still pulled out the win. I cannot think of another champion apart from Ali (vs Foreman) who did that i.e. beat a younger prime ATG while being old/past-prime.

    This arguably puts him above Larry Holmes who never beat a prime top 10 ATG and lost badly when he did face one, and who lost (by being outboxed, not a lucky punch) to an ATG LHW in his last 2 fights and never avenged the defeats. It also puts him above people like Marciano and Foreman in terms of win-loss record against other ATG top 10-20 fighters IMO.
     
    Jersey Joe, Sep 2, 2010
    Jersey Joe, Sep 2, 2010
    #1
  2. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    He ain't top-10, though it is largely not his fault. He hasn't really ducked anyone (and don't give me that crap about Rahman)... Unfortunately, he's on his way down fast and doesn't have the resume.
     
    Seamus, Sep 2, 2010
    Seamus, Sep 2, 2010
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  3. Jersey Joe

    Jersey Joe Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Remember people always under-rate boxers when they are active. 10 years ago no one really talked about Lewis as an ATG and even now a lot of people irrationally underrate him despite his very strong record. In 10-20 years, Vitali will be rated higher than you rate him now, even by yourself.

    As for resume, I knew people would bring this up, but let's ask - is his calibre of opponent any worse than say Marciano, Dempsey, Johnson? And how has he performed against his weak opposition? One cut loss vs an ATG, and a freak injury loss, and almost every other fight a dominant KO win. Marciano did better but Dempsey and Johnson had worse results vs their weakish opposition than Vitali has.

    Anyway, even if people don't rate him at least number 10, I think he's clearly knocking on the door of it. He's got a better HW record than Walcott or Bowe or Schmeling (arguably Charles too) for example, and of course his physical attributes are better than any of them.
     
    Jersey Joe, Sep 2, 2010
    Jersey Joe, Sep 2, 2010
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  4. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    I don't rank Bowe, Walcott, Schmeling or Charles in my top-10 either.
     
    Seamus, Sep 2, 2010
    Seamus, Sep 2, 2010
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  5. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Wladimir Klitschko has been the dominant one, and has been the world's number 1 since before Vitali came back.

    Vitali took 4 years out and has fought less good fighters overall.

    He failed to knock Lewis off the top, and has become overshadowed by his brother in the years since. I dont see any argument for having him in the top 10 all-time.
    Vitali is past it now so I dont expect anything good from him. Shannon Briggs is a joke challenger, I mean an absolute shocker coming after Sosnowski and Kevin Johnson.
     
    Unforgiven, Sep 2, 2010
    Unforgiven, Sep 2, 2010
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  6. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    -I personally don't look at boxing like this but some might. Like when people were arguing that Calzaghe's legacy took a hit because Kessler lost to Ward..but than he went up after Kessler beat Froch.
     
    The Mongoose, Sep 2, 2010
    The Mongoose, Sep 2, 2010
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  7. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I agree.
    I dont go along with that method based on subsequent results either.
     
    Unforgiven, Sep 2, 2010
    Unforgiven, Sep 2, 2010
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  8. OLD FOGEY

    OLD FOGEY Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I have been impressed with Vitali's basic talent. I think he would be a handful for any ATG due to his size and athleticism.

    That said, I not only don't see how he could be anywhere close to the top ten, or even the top twenty, on resume. He simply did not defeat the best of his time.

    I would argue that probably the three best heavyweights of the 2000-2010 era, other than Vitali, are Lewis, Wlad, and Byrd. Vitali lost to Lewis and Byrd, and will never fight Wlad.

    Someone like Marciano did, in fact, defeat the best of his time.
     
    OLD FOGEY, Sep 2, 2010
    OLD FOGEY, Sep 2, 2010
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  9. bodhi

    bodhi Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Vitali ain´t having a better resume than Walcott, Charles or Schmeling.

    Bowe is a good comparison I think. Neither is up there with the very best resume-wise but would be able to hold their won against most.
     
    bodhi, Sep 2, 2010
    bodhi, Sep 2, 2010
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  10. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    -Vitali has only beat 5 Ring ranked fighters in his entire career. Walcott was close to double digits with at least 6 of his opponents being top 5 in the world when he beat them, cleaning out a stacked top 10 of avoided fighters. He also KOed a Hall of Famer to win the lineal undisputed title. Vitali won the vacated Ring belt against Sanders.

    -Vitali has been overall more successful than Bowe, but he'll have to do bit more to displace his "great" Holyfield wins.

    -Charles? Just no. Not even close to the same accomplishments. As a Heavyweight he beat more ranked fighters and hall of famers from 49-50 than Vitali did in his entire career.

    -In terms of his peers, Vitali is roughly on par with Ruiz and Byrd in terms of achievement. Are Ruiz and Byrd top 10?
     
    The Mongoose, Sep 2, 2010
    The Mongoose, Sep 2, 2010
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  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Exactly!
     
    mcvey, Sep 2, 2010
    mcvey, Sep 2, 2010
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  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Really? I think he's 2-2 against top 4 ranked contenders, meaning his managed to fight exactly four of them in his 8 years at or near the top of the tree...maybe saying he ducked "no-one" is a strange way of saying he failed to fight nearly everyone?



    Lewis is top 4/3 for me already.
     
    McGrain, Sep 2, 2010
    McGrain, Sep 2, 2010
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  13. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Dempsey didnt dominated his era, he just didnt fight them. Its not the same.
     
    Dempsey1238, Sep 2, 2010
    Dempsey1238, Sep 2, 2010
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  14. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Sanders, Arreola, Peter, Gomez Kirk and Kevin Johnson were all ranked, no?

    But again, my problem is that his resume is not very deep. So I think we are closer to agreeing here.
     
    Seamus, Sep 2, 2010
    Seamus, Sep 2, 2010
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  15. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Good post ,which I think puts things in perspective.
     
    mcvey, Sep 2, 2010
    mcvey, Sep 2, 2010
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