If Vitali Klitschko enters the top 10 ATG, does that force Lewis to #3?

-Your correct in that he's only fought four overall top 5 contender types. Beyond that Gomez, Arreola, and Kirk Johnson were just lower end top 10.

-I think part of the problem is that he was brought up very slowly after the Byrd mess and was forced to retire for 4 years as soon as he raced to the top of the Championship scene after the Lewis fight. He would have probably crossed paths with Byrd, Rahman, Brewster, and Toney around this time. But it was not to pass.

-And than you have the timid contenders of today to deal with: Valuev, Haye, and Povetkin. Hard to blame Vitali but it is what it is.

 

1. Ali
2. Holmes
3. Johnson
4. Louis
5. Lewis
6. Foreman
7. V.K.
8. Holy
9. Tyson
10. Marciano-Frazier (tie)

MR.BILL

I'm sorry, but dude's like "Jeffries, Dempsey, Tunney, Baer, Charles, Walcott, Patterson, Liston, Wlad Klit and Bowe" fill-up the top-20 slots.........

 

Liston would certainly beat Liston, Marciano, and Frazier! He would have a good shot vs holyfield and tyson too.

 

I like your humour.

 

I agree..... But Liston, just like '92 Bowe, was a good to great all around fighter, but lousy as champ....... Therefore, both dude's get dinged......
:deal

MR.BILL:hat

 

Your reasoning for leaving Liston out of the top 10 is because he was "lousy" as a champ, despite the fact he had already cleaned out his division pre title?

You want to talk about "lousy" as champion, your # 3 Jack Johnson, failed to defend his title against the top 4 contenders in the heavyweight division to his throne Yet you still rate Johnson 3rd?

 

well look at who he fought in his reign. floyd patterson and and an almost peak muhammad ali.
Liston completely thrashed through the division before his title shot. So that doesn't really compute as far as head to head is concerned.
Head to head, is just head to head. Legacy wise you could bring down liston because of his weak title reign. head to head involves how well liston would do against other champions. his title reign has nothing to do with this.

 

True. But that dead and overrated sum ***** of a historian 'Nat Fleischer' states Jack Johnson was # 1........

Now, myself, I alway felt Fleischer was biased and partial to old fighters from the wild, wild west which led me to believe Ol' Nat was full of ****, too.......

MR.BILL

 

if it's so true then why do you have liston in the top 20? I feel he is in the top 10 and he certainly deserves to be that high

 

I can't drop V.K. or Marciano for political reasons.... If I do, my homies will never speak to me ever again........

However, I might be able to drop Frazier and sneak Liston in with Marciano for the tie...... Then the Frazier freaks will be out to skin me alive......

I'm not sure that Liston could beat "Holy or Tyson." Of course everyone being peaked.... Both Holy and Tyson can take good shots and both owned much quicker hands than Liston......

I like Liston, but he's an enigma........

MR.BILL

 

So you won't drop Vitali, Rocky, or Frazier because you're influenced by other posters opinions?

Liston might not beat Holyfield or Tyson, but those are really pick em fights. If Holyfield slugs with Liston he will lose. If Liston backs up Tyson with his jab and uppercuts he will lose because Tyson's style is coming forward with head movement.
You're right about the hand speed, but Liston also was taller then Tyson and had a longer reach then both.
If Cooper can put Holyfield on the deck then Liston finishes the job. But that's if Holyfield goes to slugging.

 

I'm hardly politically correct in anything, but I do try to maintain the peace to a certain degree.........

I will drop Frazier and put Liston in there at # 10 with Marciano........ I always felt Liston could take Frazier, even in around 1966 when Liston was aging but still strong...... If Frazier tried to wade in on Liston in '66, even a slowed Liston could still time Frazier with a wicked punch or two.........

MR.BILL

 

Johnson's no1 contender was Jeffries. He was the biggest fight, the guy everyone thought was World Champion and would beat him. Johnson fought him and beat him. Late admittedly, but that wasnt Johnson's fault.

No 2 was Langford. Johnson defended his version of his world championship against Langford and beat him. It is a bit of a shame he didnt get a rematch, but how many World champions (who went on to be undisputed world champs) have successfully beaten a contender, and then lost the rematch and/or rubber match?

No 3 was McVey. Johnson dominated him.

No 4 was Jeanette. Johnson dominated their series.

No 5 was Jack O Brien. Johnson fought a short ND with him. Johnson toyed with him enough that no one thought he was a great white hope, despite their desperateness to find one.

No 6 was Tommy Burns. Johnson KO d him with ease and unified his title against him.

No 7 was Denver Ed Martin. JOhnson won the World title against him and defended it against him.

No 8 was Stanley Ketchell. Not a great heavyweight, but he did hold the second best belt in the world at the time that Johnson fought him. Johnson stopped him.

No 9 was Old Bob Fitzsimmons. Johnson knocked him out.

No 10 was Jim Flynn, who went on to KO Dempsey. JOhnson beat him.

The order is debateable and there are a few others who might easily make the list.

Who are the top 4 you are talking about that he didnt fight when he was a champion? I am thinking you mean:

Luther McCarthy - who he had a pretty decent excuse for not fighting.

Marvin Hart - who lost all form and fell from grace as a top contender. JOhnson had thrashed the man who beat Marvin Hart.

Gunboat Smith - Who was never really a serious chance against JOhnson despite beating Langford.

Who is the 4th though? Jim Corbett, who was blatantly ducked by Johnson, no actually from memory Johnson agreed to fight corbett and corbett pulled out! Maybe John L Sullivan who as London Prize Ring Champion, was the only world champion claimant of his time that Johnson did not beat?