If Vitali Klitschko enters the top 10 ATG, does that force Lewis to #3?

"Gunboat Smith--Who was never really a serious chance against Johnson despite beating Langford"

Perhaps I don't understand this, but why would Smith, who not only beat Langford, but also Willard, not have a "serious chance" against a 36 or so Johnson?

 

Its pretty difficult to put Vitaly in the top 10 not just because of his resume or fighting in an weak era but his 4 year layoff (voluntary I should add) hurt him.

No one will fault him for losing the the best fighters he's ever faced as long as his body of work is strong. Something to consider is that he's the only young lion that I think of that failed to displace the old champion on the way out. That hurts him. He hasn't beaten many ranked contenders compared to his peers and at no point was he ever the undisputed champion. Even in this day and age it is still possible to become one.

He does have some pretty strong numbers on paper (His KO% is high, Never behind on Cards in any fight) that will give him a case for ATG status not to mention having a blemish free reign as champion since the Sanders fight. But all in all a strong case for top 20 but for top 10?

Lets take a look:

Louis
Ali
Johnson
Marciano
Holmes
Tyson
Lewis
Frazier
Foreman
Holyfield
Liston
Walcott
Charles
Wills
Langford
Jeffries
Bowe
Norton
Patterson

Of the 19 names I listed above competing for top 10 spots, Its pretty hard for me to put Vitaly Klitschko ahead of 10 of them.

A much better case can be made for Wladimir though I still don't see him in the top 10.

 

Bowe and Norton above Patterson, Schmeling, Sharkey, Baer? Based on what exactly?

 

Vitali will never, EVER become a top ten heavyweight so its a completely, and totally irrelevent question. The current HW scene is quite barren, making him **** out of luck legacy wise. We're talking about a man with potentially 2 more fights to his career.

You have to be generous to even put him in a top 20, not to mention a top 15. We should be discussing if he should be ahead of Jack Sharkey or Floyd Patterson for Christs sake.

Inactivity, weak opposition that was made for him (Arreola and Peter? Can you say limited and one dimensional?) and absolutely failing at the highest level when it mattered the most.

Some of his biggest wins, and his biggest loss, come against grossly out of shape opposition, in the Kirk Johnson and Lennox Lewis matches.

 

Because it suited my agenda at the time!

Gunboat Smith certainly had a brilliant run from about 1912 to 1914.

Savage, Stewart, Moran, Wells were solid contenders in 1912.

And then in 1913, wins over Wells, Rodell, Willard, Flynn, Morris, Ross, Miller and of course Langford. In fact (to make things topical) Smith beat more contenders in one year than Vitali did in his entire career! And in Langford and Willard, he probably beat a better qualified calliber of opponnent too!. In fact, if he hadnt been beaten in the return match by Langford and Georges Carpentier, his run would have started to look special enough to see him as the next great champion, comparable with pre title work of Johnson, Liston, Wills etc. But he did lose those two fights and seemed to lose form because of this. Johnson had basically semi retired after the Jeffries fight and was fighting only once per year, if that.

So i guess you are probably right about him being a chance to beat Johnson at this time. In fact, it is arguable that he is the best fighter of JOhnson's era that Johnson never fought (although if the fight did happen, Johnson great as he was would have been definitely past prime). Given that he was white, and that JOhnson was supposedly so hated, it really is surprising that there wasnt more demand for such a fight. I have always thought from a marketing perspective that more would have been made of the claims of Gunboat Smith and Marvin Hart's claims for title shots as they could have been huge fights, but strangely there wasnt huge pushes for them to occur.

 

but of course you're still willing to put klitschko above liston
that's basically the only flaw with your list man. had he dominated a strong era and actually fought some good contenders then he would be a canidate for the top 10.
and if he didn't get stopped by an old lewis

 

Or Gunboat Smith!

 

This fight is what secures Lewis a place as a definate top 5 ATG. I have him at 2 but i know thats because i am a Lewis fan boy.

To come into a fight past your best and out of shape and beat the guy who will go on to dominate the devision , all be it not exclusively, for the best part of a decade is a stand alone achivement.

 

well really i don't think lewis should be #2 next to Ali
that's really overrating him
Liston is one of my favorites but I refuse to rank him higher then 5

 

I totaly accept that many others wont have him there. Its just in my head and my way of ranking what ATG means to me.

 

Well, it's good to know that you're not some Lewis nuthugger.

What are your criterias for ranking him? I know head to head he's gotta rank highly, on the outside, it's hard to outbox him, with those jabs and straight rights.
on the inside, he's still very hard, and can knock someone out with an uppercut or left hook.

Legacy wise, he's one of the few that can say he beat every man he ever fought. He also has very good names on his resume and is the only one to really beat up Vitali. And he's a 3 time champion.


I still don't see him #2.

 

Its not in order....

 

Marciano at number 10 :huh

 

& by the same reasoning. You leave Dempsey off the list altogether!? Mr. Bill - Ohh Noooo!!!

 

Ok I have to get these points off my chest.


1. Vitali Klitschko is not, and never will be a top 10 heavyweight of all time. Unless he knocks out Wladimir Klitschko, David Haye, Alexander Povetkin, Tomas Adamek in his next 4 fights....highly unlikely.

2. Vitali Klitschko is not an ATG, and never will be. Unless he knocks out Wladimir Klitschko, David Haye, Alexander Povetkin, Tomas Adamek in his next 4 fights....highly unlikely.

3. Vitali has not cleaned out the division the last 5 years. Not even close. His brother, Wladimir has been cleaning out the division and has firmly established himself as the MAN in the division.