If we switch Dempsey and Marciano, does anything interesting pop up?

Tunney basically did the same to Dempsey in 1926.

 

Flynn only won 7 of his last 28 bouts before he fought Dempsey. Flynn only had two 1st round KO's in his career, Dempsey and Bob Williams, who never had a bout before. Flynn was never a great puncher, let allow a 1 punch KO artist.

 

Almost, BUT Dempsey was out of boxing for 3 years, and Greb was very active, boxing 25 times in 1925.

 

First off, Flynn was not some thrid rate journeyman but a long time , very tough vet and long time contender.

Secondly, everything I read says there were three knockdowns in the first Dempsey bout which takes away from the one punch ko bit ...

Three I would not put Lowery near Willie as Willie has decisions over both Dempsey and Sam Langford ...

 

I phoned the Salt Lake City Library and am trying to get the Salt Lake City reports on this fight and the reaction to it.

There is reason for skepticism, but one thing that bothers me is Dempsey supposedly going down with the first punch. This was Salt Lake City in 1917---still pretty close to the wild west era. It doesn't make much sense to me for Dempsey to make it look so phony. If I were him, I would have been worried about a disgruntled gambler who dropped a wad betting on this fight taking it out on Dempsey by gunning him down in some dark allay. Dempsey later explained that he was cold-cocked while shaking hands and maybe that is how it went down.

 

Flynn's 2 biggest wins was against Jack Twin Sullivan and Billy Papke and they were middleweights. He also beat a young Carl Morris.

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In Dempsey's books, they have 3 knockdowns BUT all other reports have him being KO'ed with the 1st punch. Maybe when "OLD FOGEY" gets the newspaper reports, we can settle this once and for all.

 

Regarding Marciano/Willard ... Styles make fights and I do feel Willard would be tough for Marciano ... Dempsey excelled in that fight because of his explosive power, hand and foot speed. Marciano never had these qualities .. I can see Willard, much stronger than Marciano, hugging and holding, occasionally tagging Rocky with a tough uppercut ... Rocky would win but it would be a Green/Smith/Tucker vs Tyson type of hug-a-thon ...

 

Flynn did have some impressive ko's to his credit, Dempsey aside. He ko'd former lightheavy champion George Gardner in 18. Gardner had gone the distance with both Fitzsimmons and Johnson. He ko'd Bill Squires in 6. He ko'd Al Kaufman, one of the top heavyweights of the Johnson era, in 10. Kaufman was on a roll at the time.

Dempsey, after all, was down nine times to the middleweight Johnny Sudenberg. Flynn was a much bigger and better fighter than Sudenberg.

Flynn was losing often going into the Dempsey fight, but to people like Dillon and Fulton, among the best in the world. Dempsey was not fighting at that level.

 

Agreed BUT Flynn fought Gardner in 1907, when Gardner was at the end of his career. Flynn fought Dempsey 10 years later. Gardner only won 2 out of his last 13 decision bouts and getting KO'ed 5 times.

Bill Squires, who fought Flynn in 1907 too, only had 1 win in his last 11 decision bouts, including getting KO'ed 10 times.

Al Kaufman, I agree he was on some kind of a roll. He fought Flynn in 1911, after that bout, Al had 2 wins in his last 7 decision bouts and was stopped 3 times.

 

Let's get something straight, if ever a manager made a fighter it is Kearns to Dempsey. Dempsey was an underperforming talent on his way to obsecurity till he met Kearns . He was going no where fast and was likely on the verge of packing it in ... Kearns built his confidence, afforded him the opportunity to train consistently and eat regularly, fight often against carefully selected opposition and receive top publicity. Dempsey definately had huge talent but without Kearns we never would have heard of him and the first Flynn fight is the perfect example of why ... undertrained, under experienced, wrong opponent, wrong time ... one year later with Kearns he wins against the same guy by one round KO ... the only problem is that once he won the title Kearns protected him like a gem, milked the entertainment industry money and let him dissipate as a fighter ...

Marciano on the other hand came along in a different era, when being white alone gave him a big shot. In addition, Rocky was a fighter every day of his career. No short cuts, no vacations, no hollywood, no bull****. Just serious asskicking ...

I always have felt Dempsey had more overall ability and was the better fighter at their best but there is little doubt to me that Marciano was a tremendous warrior from the time he first laced up the gloves till the day his plane crashed ...

 

Yes, BUT it was Kearns that sent a letter to Dempsey. Dempsey needed a manager and Kearns needed a fighter. Dempsey was the 1st boxer that went anywhere under Kearns. Kearns managed Joe Bonds before Dempsey. He later managed Mickey Walker, Joey Maxim and Archie Moore.

 

White alone DIDNT give the Rock a shot. What gave him the title shot was cleaning up the top ten on his way to Walcott. Walcott was too busy with his Ezzard Charles matchs to face Rocky after Marciano ko Louis.

Marciano than had to crush Lee and Harry to prove his point. And only after agreeing to Walcott on low purse, with the SAME deal in the rematch, did Rocky get his shot. He was relly short change in the rematch as champion imo.

Rocky was the best of his era. He clean house on it. And it was not because he was white, but because he was the BEST of his day.
Had white been the only reason for title shots, why didnt Rex Layne, Lee Salvod, and Harry Kid Matthews get title shots?? The reason. They lost to Rocky.

 

:good

 

Dempsey may have a lot of trouble vs the slick Walcott, Charles and Moore...He may be them but not an easy task....On the other hand any version of Marciano beats Tunney but late in the fight or like a Roland Lastarza type of wear em down and break em down win...Dempsey could punch but Walcott and Charles and Moore were slick and all powerfull, not easy wins....Marciano vs Firpo and Willard would be interesting to watch but a Rex Layne type of KO for the Rock