If Wilder KO's Usyk, is he one of the greatest heavyweights of all time?

I have already made the parralel between the likes of Sven Ottke winning a title and Wilders title reign, there's no difference between picking up a title and fighting 10-20 ranked opposition and not having a title and fighting 10-20 ranked opposition If you believe there is, please confirm what this difference is. Which top 5 heavyweight did he defend his title against?

You've just made that up, I never said once that he was a fraud, merely that the level of competetion he has beaten does not warrant him being considered an ATG fighter. You're pinning his entire legacy on 3 losses to Tyson Fury and a win over Luis Ortiz, which proves my point.

I literally named SEVEN other fighters that have achieved 8 consequetive years inside the top 10, that I wouldn't consider all time great heavyweights, and again you've continued the narrative of ignoring the counter points and strawmanning rather than accept that I successfully named SEVEN other heavyweight that meet your made up greatness criteria.

And how many of those were lineal title defenses? How many of them even unified title defenses? How many of those title defenses were against top 5 contenders? This is the point I am making that you keep brushing past rather than acknowlegding and countering. It's not the number of title defenses I am focusing on, it's the quality of opponent. Sven Ottke is 22-0 in title fights, do you consider him an ATG?

Easy, the quality of opponent seldom reaches the top 10 of the division.

Another easy one, because they captured the lineal title and/or the majority portions of the titles and regularly defended against top 10 opposition.

The overwhelming majority of people had Wilder clearly losing that fight. I guess Holyfield successfully defending his portion of the crown against Lewis in their first fight.

I said he hasn't beaten any top level opposition. Proven by you only being able to name a GIFT draw vs Tyson fury as his greatest accolade. Those are ring ranked ratings, aside from one which the ring ranked rating for that year changes nothing about which top level opposition Wilder faced that year.

If you'd read properly instead of skimming to find things that fit your narrative, aside from that 2015 the rest are ring ratings. The ring rating for 2015 is exactly the same. Yeah, that's exactly what I am saying - he defended against low level opposition and lost every time he stepped up. His only win of note is against Luis Ortiz.

But they didn't fight though, and you say it's "not bad" - Fury, Usyk and Joshua all have more significant wins, hell even Parker and Povetkin do. Would you consider all of these guys all time greats too? Unless holding the WBC ransom whilst going life and death with Johan Duhappas.

Revisitonist history, there were plenty of good level heavyweight fights from 2015 -2021.

Exactly! Neither I would consider all time GREAT fighters.

Yes exactly, both are rated similarly. Perhaps Joshua slightly higher as his level of opposition was higher overall, but there's not much in it. Like Joshua, Wilder is not a great fighter.

No custom ratings. As it was pretty clear, these are ring ratings outside of 2015 in which is almost the same as the ring rating for 2015.

Remove the WBC belt from the equation, and is his record worthy of all time great status? The same question can be posed about Lucian Bute who is 10-4 in title fights, and Sven Ottke who is 22-0 in title fights. Capturing a title and defending it against low level opposition is not the measure of a great fighter. Losing to top fighters, is not the measure of a top fighter.

If somewhow, Wilder was to beat Usyk, and defend the title even once or twice, against good opposition - I would consider him a great fighter. The same with Joshua - they are both several significant wins at the TOP of the division away from being consdered great in my opinion.

Every single point countered, nothing glossed over or ignored.

 

Wilder is not a one hit wonder, he was statistically the most consistent heavyweight champ of recent years.
To use your term. Fury is statistically closer to being a one-hit wonder, but i personally wouldn’t call him that, he’s a great fighter.

Wilder defended against the top 15 in WBC rankings, which is what he is required to do as WBC champion (historically the most prestigious by a small margin).
if you personally want him to defend against the “bad left hook” rankings, that’s a standard you personally have and nobody seriously in boxing dreams of being the “bad left hook” champion. Most grow up dreaming of being WBC champion, which is what wilder was.

Joshua won it off Charles Martin, wilder won it off stiverne, what were they supposed to do? Avoid the belt until someone better gets it?

 

You posted this, right?

 

What a post!

 

I said name another heavyweight ranked among the top three contenders OR HIGHER by Ring every month (12 consecutive months) for eight straight years.

You listed a handful of guys, most of whom weren't even ranked from year to year, let alone in the TOP THREE CONTENDERS OR HIGHER for EIGHT FREAKING YEARS.

96 straight months in the top three contenders or HIGHER.

There aren't any Frauds on lists like that.

 

No but he's going to be remembered and that’s all you can ask for as a professional athlete. I like Usyk and I think Wilder is a twat but I love comebacks and underdoug stories.

 

When was Sven Ottke a heavyweight?

Talk about moving the freaking bar. We're talking about the repercussions of Wilder Koing Usyk to become the second-oldest heavyweight champion and where he'd rank all time if he did it.

What in God's name does Sven Ottke have to do with anything on this topic? Quit changing the subject.

 

YOU keep saying he lost to Fury three times and he only had one win over Luis Ortiz.

Neither are true.

He made his eighth and 11th title defenses against Fury and his seventh and tenth title defenses against Luis Ortiz.

He only lost one of those fights. He successfully defended the other three times, scoring SIX KNOCKDOWNS (and going down no times himself) in those three successful defenses in particular.

If you can't even acknowledge what actually happened, what's the point?

And I'm not basing my take on him on just those fights. I'm basing it on the fact that he was WBC heavyweight champion for five years (which you want to totally ignore) and he made 10 successful title defenses (which you want to ignore) and the fact that he already holds top 10 records in boxing history in terms of most consecutive heavyweight title defenses and top five in boxing history in terms of longest title reign (which you also want to ignore because all-time records apparently also mean nothing to you).

You won't even accept all the top 10 wins he had in the made-up ratings you posted yourself. Hell, you didn't even include every year he was champion.

The only fraud in this conversation is your argument. I'm done.

You are just trolling. Clearly. I don't have time for trolls anymore. That's all you're going to get from me.

 

You keep changing the goal posts past. It’s getting tiring. Which hw champ of recent years have you liked? and we can decimate their resume using your failed logic

All were top 15, fury Ortiz and stiverne were top 5 if I recall correctly.
Sven was probably willing to fight the big names, but nobody worth anything was willing to go his “corner of the world” to be ripped off in some of the most scandalous fights in history. Wilder was in the USA, in the area which has long time been the Mecca of boxing. Povetkin and Joshua deals didn’t go through. Povetkin was completely his own fault.

you did say that. As quoted above.

He successfully defended against fury once and had FOTY, with him in the 3rd….or are you changing history to make your point seem more valid?

he asked for continuously being in top3 not top10. name the fighters in the top 3 for 8 consecutive years?

Lineal? There was no lineal champ or governing body called lineal, as it’s an abstract theory. I do understand what you are trying to say but for many years the consensus was AJ & WILDER make the top 2, until they fight or we know what fury is doing.

Yes he did. To add, he didn’t drop Lewis twice, once rendering him looking dead and granted a fairly iconic referee moment. He didn’t come close to a ko.

most of what you post is selective to push a narrative. You’ve not once mentioned and keep pushing aside the most prestige WBC title and rankings.

who is from this era? Fury?

your moving goalposts and answering different questions.

 

One discussion becomes 20 when people can’t focus on the actual discussion

 

Exactly. The "let's talk about anything except the topic" crowd.

How do look at the topic of this thread and say, "I'm going to bring up Sven Ottke a half-dozen times."

Thanks.

 

it’s bonkers mate. having to go to basics to just confirm the official result of a fight which is in black & white

 

You have latched onto this bad left hook rating. The rest are ring magazine ratings, how does that fit your narrative?

I never had qualms about Wilder winning it, but doing nothing to fight the upper echelons of the division isn't champion worthy.

 

Yeah and, I keep asking, how did you have that fight scored? My eyes watched Fury outbox Wilder easily for all but two rounds. I mean, look at the results of the poll - how many call Wilder an ATG with an Usyk win? There's only die hard Wilder fans such as yourself and your companion. Unless all of them are just "haters", right?

I am not ignoring that he was WBC champion - just making accurate parralells to other "champions" that picked up a title and fought the LOWEST level of opposition available to them for the majority of their reign. He wasn't unified, he didn't attempt it. No worming around it negates that fact.

Yeah, I guess everyone who shares the opinion that Wilder isn't an all time great, must be a troll. That's a nice narrative you've got there. You and OP are just coming off as sponsored by Wilder.

 

If you'd read the post correctly - Sven Ottke, like Wilder, gained a PORTION of the four titles, and did nothing but defend it against low level opposition - with the rounding off point being that, would you consider Sven Ottke an all time great, as he has 22-0 record in title fights. This is using your own measure of greatness, as you keep talking about how GREAT his reign as WBC champion was.

If you're unable to follow that simple concept of comparison, I don't know what to tell you.