If you had a time machine???

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Fergy, Jan 25, 2017.


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  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I don't "want to get" either. I just don't think his imprisonment was illegal. It's not a matter of technical or cuteness - it's just a question of legality. His incarceration was legal, not illegal. He was not held by the Government in contradiction to the law. That's all I said, and that's all I meant.
     
    McGrain, Jan 25, 2017
    McGrain, Jan 25, 2017
    #46
  2. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    Law is complex and man made. Often, things don't fit neatly into buckets like "legal" and "illegal." Especially in this kind of context.

    For instance; it is illegal to indict someone on an act before that act becomes a crime. Like passing prohibition, and then arresting anyone who has ever drank in the past.
    Same thing happened to Johnson.
    However, our legal system let it happen anyway. So is it illegal when those who control the law break it? Again, complexity, contradictions, and man made imperfections.
     
    reznick, Jan 25, 2017
    reznick, Jan 25, 2017
    #47
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    In this context, the question is, "was Jack Johnson held illegaly" and the answer is "no".

    Prosecuting retrospectively is perfectly legal if it is in law. In other words, "arresting anyone who has ever drank" would be legal if the a law making it legal was passed, and illegal if it was not.
     
    McGrain, Jan 25, 2017
    McGrain, Jan 25, 2017
    #48
  4. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    Actually the answer is yes.

    I looked into it and found out that the US Constitution prohibits the making of ex post facto law.
    Jack Johnsons indictment was 100% illegal.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2017
    reznick, Jan 25, 2017
    reznick, Jan 25, 2017
    #49
  5. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    It's crazy that some people in this very forum (not you) believe that Johnson deserved to go to jail lol.
    When the morality argument didn't suit them, they tried using the legal argument lol.

    Guess they have their reasons, whatever they are...
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2017
    reznick, Jan 25, 2017
    reznick, Jan 25, 2017
    #50
  6. juppity

    juppity Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I would have told Joe Louis to get a proper accountant to pay his taxes and Mike Tyson when
    in his prime get a financial adviser like Sugar Ray Leonard did with Mike Trainer and the
    same with Evander Holyfield to look after their finances.
     
    juppity, Jan 25, 2017
    juppity, Jan 25, 2017
    #51
    Fergy, fistfighter and reznick like this.
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    The ammendment seems to have been passed in law in 1990, making it 100% legal.
     
    McGrain, Jan 25, 2017
    McGrain, Jan 25, 2017
    #52
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I actually do think he might have deserved to go to jail, but certainly not for what he went in for.
     
    McGrain, Jan 25, 2017
    McGrain, Jan 25, 2017
    #53
  9. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    Nope. Thomas Jefferson signed off on it himself. 100% illegal.
    http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/tocs/a1_9_3.html

    Also, even if you were right, wouldn't make it legal. This is just the most obvious first line of defense. You can't arrest someone for doing something yesterday that you made illegal today.

    After that you can get into the illegal practices of the prosecution which should've warranted the case to be thrown out. But the person who was supposed to do that admonished Johnson for having black skin, so, yeah...
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2017
    reznick, Jan 25, 2017
    reznick, Jan 25, 2017
    #54
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    In fact, regardless of when the law was interned, it seems that it doesn't matter. Numerous crimes, most expressly those of a sexual nature, are excluded. So it's not indelible.

    In other words, as long as it's enshrined in law, it's perfectly legal. Examples include use of a gun in domestic violence, child abuse, and those convicted of sexual offences.

    100% legal again!
     
    McGrain, Jan 25, 2017
    McGrain, Jan 25, 2017
    #55
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    This is interesting:

    The Mann Act was used by the Federal Bureau of Investigation to curtail commercialized vice. It was also often used toprosecute prominent persons who did not conform to conventional morality. Jack Johnson, a heavyweight boxing champion,was charged with and convicted of a Mann Act violation in 1912, for taking his mistress across state lines. Over the years,similar charges were leveled against the architect Frank Lloyd Wright, the actor Charlie Chaplin, and the rock and roll singerChuck Berry. Of these three, only Berry was convicted of a Mann Act violation.

    Why does it say this? I thought Johnson was convicted of a Mann Act violation? Was Johnson convicted on some other technicality?

    Ah, no, never mind, it means the other three.
     
    McGrain, Jan 25, 2017
    McGrain, Jan 25, 2017
    #56
  12. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    Do you know why didn't they go after him for all that other stuff? I don't.

    Seems like they would've had higher moral ground.
     
    reznick, Jan 25, 2017
    reznick, Jan 25, 2017
    #57
  13. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    Beats me. I always thought the same thing as you. Perhaps an error on their part?

    I wish we could summon Adam Pollack at will.
     
    reznick, Jan 25, 2017
    reznick, Jan 25, 2017
    #58
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    No, I absolutely do not know. I guess they really wanted to get him and the type of pimping etc. he got into just didn't carry weighty enough sentences for what they wanted to do?
     
    McGrain, Jan 25, 2017
    McGrain, Jan 25, 2017
    #59
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Probably just reading Part II of his JJ book would do. I do have it, I just haven't opened it yet.
     
    McGrain, Jan 25, 2017
    McGrain, Jan 25, 2017
    #60
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