If you heard a story that would hurt boxing legend, should you tell it?

let's see, i'm 5-11 and went from 160 to 195 in the same time period with 6 percent body fat, using nothing more than creatine and 3 hour workouts. so, am i to believe that a 6-7 guy can't put on 54 lbs more time than i put on 35?

 

Sooner or later, I would like to believe, all sports fans will realize that most modern sporting legends have used "performance enhancing drugs". I despair at the high level of ignorance on the subject.

The politically-motivated anti-steroid moral panic hysteria has tainted everyone's ability to think reasonably on this subject.

Muhammad Ali probably used them, and if he didn't then Ferdie Pacheco wasn't really doing his job.

Still, the drugs and supplements the heavyweights of 2008 use are far superior than what fighters were taking 30 or 40 years ago.

 

I really don't understand how you can compare natural advantages with artificial ones mate.

The Lewis analogy is inherently flawed since boxing's weight divisions are based on weight, not height and reach. I'm sure Tyson would have had a field day in the middleweight division!
Seriously though, even though height and reach can be advantageous what are we to do, stop the man from fighting? Chop his hands off?

With steroids, you're using an outside, unnatural source to gain an advantage. Much like placing the proverbial horseshoe in the glove. The fact that nobody is told about it pretty much seals it for me.

I see what you're saying and tend to agree. It is different in Ali's case as it was legal then (I'm going on your word here, as I didn't know that) so from the standpoint of illegality he's golden.
But surely we'd have to question his performances in some fights if the rumour somehow proves to be true?
I guess we'd have to reach consensus as to whether the steroids granted an advantage or not.

I don't blame Ali, I blame Pacheco. Frankly, as a man charged with looking after Ali's health, I find Pacheco's rumoured conduct in administering steroids to Ali highly irresponsible. It's not the fighter's responsibility to know what his doctor is administering to him.

 

I understand the point you're trying to make here (and you're doing well) but there is a world of difference between Creatine and steroids, as far as enhancing performance goes.

To answer your question: No, I would not discount any achievements by boxers that had been using creatine should it be made illegal.
But the thing is, as I said, the reason creatine is not illegal is that it's just not that powerful a substance. That's one reason it is still legal, and probably always will be.
In addition, we must bear in mind that steroids are also partly illegal because if not administered correctly, it can lead to health problems.

 

I'm sure you can find tons of example where I fighter puts on that weight between 18 and 22. I find nothing extraordinary there.

He would really have to be a pioneer case in steroids for a fighter if your theory is true, as well. This being the early 1960's.

 

Ali weighed 192 in his pro debut in 1960,in 64 ,when he fought Liston he scaled 210 1/2,that is 18 1/2 pounds ,an entirely logical and normal increase ,for a maturing young man ,getting hard training , and the best of diets.

 

You blame Pacheco ,for what ,a rumour? Pacheco worked for Ali for nothing,never took a penny and walked away when Ali was obviously deteriorating ,[something Dundee and Herbert Muhammad didnt do].

 

1. Ali was 18yo kid at the 1960 Olympics. Do you even know what the LHW limit is in the amateurs, heres a clue it isn't 175. So from 18-22 Ali gained 30lbs, but Ali wasn't ever muscular or have any steroid like tell tale signs. And Steroids weren't readily available in the 60s, so you think an 18yo kid could get steroids?

2. No a very good Vitali fan are you? Vitali fought kickboxing fights at 196 :deal in 1992. VITALI GAINED 50LBS NOT 30 AND VITALI WAS CAUGHT TESTED POSITIVE FOR STEROIDS ALI WAS NOT

This rumour is completely fabricated based on Mendoza's agenda with zero proof, the whole 'I know something but don't want to say anything to hurt a legend' is a thin veil to hide his anti-Ali agenda, Mendoza has always been anti-Ali

 

HAVE YOU PROOF OF YOUR ALLEGATION? I dont understand the reference to Dempsey or Liston what has that to do with Ali? Pacheco worked in Ali's corner ,and as his physician, for free.That isnt a rumour its a fact.As is the free clinic he conducted for poor people.I repeat ,WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?

 

I'm not blaming him for anything, but what I'm saying is that IF (big if) the rumour one day is somehow proved to be true, then we can start looking at the good doctor for administering a potentially harmful substance to a fighter.

I'm not buying into the rumour without any kind of evidence, but I'm speaking hypothetically here.

 

Well Ali also made his pro debut in 1960 at 192 pounds. This was October 1960. So in slightly less than two months he's put on about lets say 18 pounds. In the next 3 years he's added another 18. How do you explain that? In the rematch with Liston he actually dropped 4.5 pounds. So now his 3 year (just over) weight gain without any dramatisation is a mere 14 pounds. 2 fights later he is at 214 then 2 months later just 201.

It's an entirely different outlook with a deeper picture.

Gerry Cooney at 19 was fighting at 175. 2 years later he was 208. Regardless of height that's a lot more dramatic than Ali. To look at Ali's weights and imply steriods via that is ridiculous.

 

Well if you're trying to say (just for the sake of argument) that Ali was greater than Jack Johnson or Dempsey or Louis or Marciano, because he was faster, bigger, stronger, more powerful etc... then your argument is unfounded due to the use of substances that enhanced (in this case) Ali.

It would mean that any film based eveidence of his physical prowess would essentially be compromised to the point of being unsuable.

Not really sure... Like I said, physical differences like speed and power would have to be questioned...

You are what you are. How can you be anything else? The weight classes are there to try and bring about some parity and that's as far as it goes. Other than that there is no alternative to being yourself.

I do agree that the whole legality/illegality issue casts a shadow over it all, but if (let's just say it's true for our debate) that Pacheco was giving steroids to Ali then why wasn't it public knowledge? Why even now do they feel the need to hide it. When they talked about training regimes etc why wasn't it put documented?

No I wouldn't discount them but neither would I drool all over the screen at their supposed super-powers.

When comparing modern boxers to old timers I look at who they actually beat and achieved to temper whatever I saw on film. To be honest most fantasy match ups are nothing mroe than one set of fans arguing with another.

 

Thing is Seamus, a boxer's routine will include so much work that putting on weight quickly is very, very hard. They are burning huge ammounts of calories in their training camps. I know from experience that it's not easy for professional athletes to put on weight naturally, no matter how much they eat.

 

Yes but Ali was a developing speciman, it's not as if he was already fully grown. The other thing is that when we break the so called weight gain down minus the sensationalism it is much less dramatic. Thirdly it seems Ali was watching his weight very very closely to make 175 as my comparison per Olympic Games to pro debut shows.