If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

...and when drugs in general found their way into boxing? I would like to hear this as well.

As a fairly conservative sport, boxing seems like it would attract steroid use only relatively recently, when weightlifting and similar methods also came into vogue.

 

To tell the truth, I suspect that the vast majority of the top heavyweights have been using them at one time or another...nor do we really have the ability to accurately catch them all. As far as I'm concerned, Holyfield was on the same level of playing field as his steroid-using contemporaries.

 

I think he used steroids. I think some of his inconsistent performances and ailments may have been due to it. Like the rubber match against Bowe when he suffered from a case of too-much-HGH-itis, or the Moorer fight when the NSAC said he showed the signs of HGH use.

But that's just speculation and thought. There's no proof of it, and we also don't know which other HWs that were champs or top contenders used.

I don't think I'll change my rankings based on simply speculation. If real evidence came out, then that's different.

 

No, I wouldn't

The playing field has not been even for awhile - For all we know all his opponents have used steroids, also.

And we don't know for absolute certain.

I'm not convinced steroids = a world title either. Holyfield will still have needed to acquire skills and show guts in the ring to get where he has, they're not a miracle drug rather a mixed bag of benefits and not so favourable effects.

I rank him top10, anyway.

 

I currently rank him at #9.

I think I was asking you about this in another thread recently. If you had told me about the 2004 order findings, I would have taken your claim a little more seriously.

If you could prove he did it in the 90's, I would change my opinion of him. I place him where he is based on his performances in that decade. I guess I'll always wonder about it, but innocent until proven guilty.

 

With or withot steroids, Holy is not in my alltime top 10 heavyweight list.

 

i hate to be mean, but steroids does help in those really close moments of boxing where you're fighting back when hurt. wouldn't dare question holyfield's heart and clever ability, but against a guy like rocky marciano or joe frazier or riddick bowe and maybe tyson, you will get hurt and you just wanna go down but you muster all the courage and STRENGTH you can to fight back. steroids can help there. in that sense, i do lower him. well, let me think this through...

against atgs w +/- steroids prime for prime

lewis: win / win (competitive but close decision)
tyson: win / win
bowe: don't know what happens, steroids definitely will help big time in this fight.
holmes: loss / loss
ali: loss / loss
liston: loss / loss
foreman: loss / possible win (steroids will definitely help pull out of tough situations in this one)
frazier: loss / win
marciano: loss / win
louis: loss / loss
louis: loss / loss

in a head to head sense, it does affect him. in terms of what he achieved, he'd have beaten all the guys that he did beat (tyson, foreman, holmes, mercer, moorer) with or without steroids because he outboxed those guys.

in terms of traits, holy's greatest abilities was: 1. ring smarts - clever boxer, look at his clever boxing against tyson when holy was past his physical best and tyson was a wild, dangerous boar ; 2. hand speed and general skills ; 3. heart ; 4. physical ability to fight while hurt (yes, i separated this from 3)

steroids would affect only #4 and that would not be a factor against anyone except bowe and MAYBE tyson.

yes, it slightly lowers him.

 

I think this is the key point here.

I'm pretty sure that Holyfield was on steroids when he gained 20 pounds of lean muscle under guidance of that professional juicing guy, while already being in lean, ripped shape before that.

But the thing is, how can we know who used them and when?

Schwarzenegger was already juicing up in the 60's, who is to know Foreman didn't also take them in the 70's? Or Norton, or Lyle? There was no control whatsoever back then.

I wouldn't be suprised if Foreman (or Holmes) took them in their late-careers either. You don't have to be in ripped shape to take them. Look at Botha and Toney, they used them but weren't exactly Mike Weavers either. Add to that the psychological side ("i'm old now, i need this edge to compete") and the fact that Foreman was fighting very active for an old man.


While Holyfield is one of the extreme examples where it's pretty obvious, in some cases it's not, i.e. Botha and Toney. There may have been a lot of steroid users from the 60's on but they get a free pass because there was no control back then. In fact there still is not much control. So i don't know how fair it is to punish Holyfield for it.
Hard question actually... i'd have to think about it a bit more.