If you read the IBF rules, there is NO controversy. Bute won.

This is where we disagree.

If this was round 11 would the bell ring as soon as Bute got on his feet, or does this rule only apply to the 12th? It sounds to me like you, and others, are advocating that the bell can save the fighter because he was on his feet? You see what I mean?
I really don't think the time keeper has much to do with this. Did the ref deem Bute ready to continue? Yes, you can see that in the video. I think he did that cause he knew the fight was over, and Bute were saved. Simple as that.




Andrade KO12 Bute

 

All very nice in another universe according to another set of rules, but according to the rules applying to this contest, the IBF rules, the bell cannot save you in any round. If the fighter goes down towards the end of a round, the timekeeper doesn't ring the bell at the three minute mark but only when the fighter is up on his feet, not leaning on the ropes or holding onto them for support, as long as the referee had not in the meatime counted the fighter in question out.

Unfortunately, the timekeeper didn't follow the rules.

Bute went down with two seconds left on the clock. He did his best to get back on his feet and was on his feet without leaning over the ropes and without holding onto them for support within six seconds, and thus, four seconds after the three minute mark. At this point, the timekeeper was supposed to ring the bell and it would have gone to the judges. The referee was supposed to have no more part to play in the fight. He wasn't supposed to determine whether Bute was in a position to continue or not, for example.

The timekeeper didn't follow the rules, though. He stopped the clock with two seconds to go and waited for the referee to finish the count and restart the fight. Then, he let those two seconds elapse and rang the bell.

Because the timekeeper didn't ring the bell when Bute made it up onto his feet before the count of eight, the referee didn't know that the round was over and that Bute had beaten the clock, so he carried on counting, simply following the rules, after the fight was, according to the rules, in fact, over.

Then, you had the long count, accoring to some, and, according to others, just standard procedure according to the rules when the other fighter doesn't remain in his corner during the count.

The referee counted to eight, asked Bute if he was ready to carry on by asking him to raise his gloves, Bute raised his gloves, signally he was ready in the usual way, the referee restarted the fight (even though it had long been over, according to the rules), Bute took a small step forward, the timekeeper rang the bell and the referee waved it off.

The only way Andrade could have won KO 12, as you say, according to the rules, is if Bute had not beaten the count. It would have gone like this:

Bute goes down with two seconds to go. The referee sends Andrade to the neutral corner and picks up the count from the knock-down timekeeper. He keeps counting and when he reaches 8, Bute is either still down on the floor, leaning onto the ropes or hanging onto them for support. He counts nine and Bute is in the same situation, more or less. He counts ten and waves his hands to signal a knockout.

This, is of course, not what happened. Bute made it up onto his feet within six seconds of the knockdown, he wasn't leaning over the ropes and he wasn't holding onto them for support, so the referee could not have counted him out in any way. So, Andrade could not have won a KO12.

Some argue that Bute had been knocked out because he wasn't in a position to continue, despite the fact that he beat the clock. According to the rules, though, he needn't have been in a position to continue, because there was nothing to continue; the fight was over. The only thing he needed to do was to beat the clock, which he did.

Ohers argue that the referee should have asked him to take a step towards him to prove that he was in a position to continue. Again, according to the rules, the referee didn't need to do that because the fight was over. The referee didn't know that the fight was over, though, and in these circumstances, he might have asked Bute to take a step towards him, but he wasn't obliged to do so according to the rules. According to the rules, the referee just had to be satisfied himself that Bute was ready to continue. He asked him to raise his gloves and Bute did. That satisfied him, so he restarted the fight.

The only way Andrade could have won a TKO 12, as some others say, according to the rules, is if Bute had been knocked down earlier into the round, beat the count, was asked to continue and declined, or, tried to continue and staggered all over the place, losing his balance and almost falling down, with seconds still left of the round on the clock. The referee would have waved it off, calling Bute technically knocked out, before the three minutes had elapsed. Bute went down with two seconds left on the clock, though. There was no time left for him to get up, get an eight count, and have the fight restarted for him then to stagger all over the place and for Andrade to win a TKO 12, before the three minutes had elapsed.

All of this, though, is, of course, immaterial because the fight was long over. The fight ended the very moment Bute made it onto his feet, without leaning on the ropes or holding onto them for support, six seconds after the knockdown. The timkeeper didn't know it though, because he didn't know the rules. Because he didn't ring the bell at that time, the referee continued counting, etc. The timekeeper should have rang the bell when Bute was on his feet, not leaning over the ropes or holding onto them for support, because the referee had not counted Bute out in the meantime. Bute beat the count after the end of the round. The timekeeper should have rang the bell and the referee should have asked the judges for their scorecards.

I don't think I can explain this simple matter any more clearly. I hope my final reply satisfies you. If not, life's too short and some people still think the earth is flat so it doesn't matter.

 

I understand the rule, maybe you guys don't understand me.

The rule says, feet on the floor, hands off. So you're saying as soon as this happens, bell should sound? It doesn't matter how woobly you are, you are standing, not holding on to the ropes, you're up, round is over beeing 1st - 7th or 12th? Isn't that beeing saved by the bell?
If the referee starts counting, the bell cannot ring, right? Or are you trying to tell me the bell can ring while the referee counts?
In this fight the referee started counting, THEN time ran out. Should the bell ring thus SAVE Bute? If we go by the idea that its the time keepers fault, then the bell sould be rung during the count.
This is getting too much even for me to understand.

Here's how I see it. Bute gets knocked down. Referee starts counting. While referee tells Andrade to stay in the corner time runs out and bell doesn't sound. Which I don't think it should. Wait for referee in other words. Referee goes back and finish his counting, deeming Bute ready to fight. Starts the fight, bell rings, fight over. Right so far?
My problem is that the referee deems Bute okay to fight. I think hes done, and should be counted out. In a nuttshell.

BTW. Forget the time keeper. He has no influence on this. He CAN'T ring the bell while the referee counts, or am in the middle of a count. At least I don't think he can.

IF the rule is, that as long as you stand up on your own, the round is over, and we're talking ANY round here. Then you get saved by the bell. You guys must agree that its up to the referee to count or not. Here he did, and in my humble opinion should have counted Bute out.

Thank you gentlemen.

PS Armelee. No need to be an ******* about things.

 

Duh ???
Were you ****ing blind.
The bias officiating was blatently obvious.
The ref might as well grabbed Andrade holding both arms from behind while Bute hit him.

 

1) Was I ****ing blind? No. I am able to see and I didn't see anything other than ordinary officiating.

2) How was the officiating so obviously biased? Do you have examples? Or are you simply assuming that everyone shares your opinion on the quality of the officiating up through the end of the 12th?

Argue if you want, but please bring something to the table.

 

Yes. This is what the rules say. If you follow the rules, this is what must happen:

6. The bell will not save a boxer in any round of the bout. If a boxer is "downed" just before the 3-minute bell in any round, the referee's count shall continue and the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor.​

Yes. If you go by the rules.

No! This is what saved by the bell means:

You get knocked down close to the end of a round. The referee starts counting, Before he can count you out, the bell rings, so he stops counting and you've been saved by the bell, even though the moment the bell rang, you were still on the floor, leaning over the ropes or holding onto them for support. You then have one minute to get yourself up and ready for the next round.

Bute was not saved by the bell. He couldn't have been because the IBF rules don't allow it. The timekeeper is not allowed to ring the bell until the fighter is up on his feet, without leaning over the ropes or holding onto them for support.

Right! The timekeeper only rings the belt as long as, the fighter is back on his feet, not leaning over the ropes or holding onto them, and the fighter is in that position before the referee reached the count of eight. If the referee counts you out, the bell doesn't ring at all. That's what the rules say. You've been knocked out!

Only as long as the referee hasn't counted you out. So, if you are up on your feet without leaning over the ropes or holding onto them BEFORE the referee has reached a count of eight, the timekeeper rings the bell, and the fight is over, finished. You've beaten the count, the fight is finished and it goes to the scorecards.

Yes. Bute was knocked down with two seconds left on the clock. But the clock doesn't get stopped the moment the fighter gets knocked down. There are two timekeepers. The second one, the knockdown timekeeper starts his clock the moment the fighter gets knocked down, and gives the referee the count the moment he is ready to start counting, after he instructs the other fighter to go to the neutral corner.

The timekeeper shouldn't have rang the bell two seconds after Bute was knocked down (Bute was knocked down with two seconds left on the clock) (at the three minute mark), but the moment Bute was up on his feet, not leaning over the ropes or holding onto them (which was six seconds after he got knocked down) (four seconds afte the three minute round) BECAUSE Bute had managed to get himself on his feer, without leaning over the ropes or holding onto them for support BEFORE the referee had a chance to count past eight.

It doesn't matter what you think should have happened. The only thing that matters is what the rules say should have happened, with all due respect, naturally. Bute was knocked down with two seconds left on the clock. He got up on his feet without leaning onto the ropes or holding onto them for support six seconds later.

Six seconds is more than two seconds, so it was after the end of the three minute period. Six seconds is less than eight seconds, so it was before the referee had a chance to count Bute past the eight mark. Forgive me, but is there a way of explaining this any clearer without offending your intelligence any further?

Wait for the referee to do what? Count Bute out? Bute beat the count? According to the rules, the timekeeper would do nothing except wait for the referee as long as the the fighter knocked down couldn't beat the count of the referee. In other words, if Bute had stayed down on the floor, leaned over the ropes or held onto them for support when the referee counted eight, then nine and then ten, the timekeeper should have waited for the referee to count Bute out and call him knocked out, and the bell would not have rang at all, ever, not even ten minutes later. But Bute beat the count! He was up on his feet without leaning over the ropes or holding onto them for support withing six seconds of getting knocked down, so there was no time for the referee to count Bute out. He beat the count. Since Bute beat the count four seconds after the end of the three minute period, and since the referee had not had the chance to count him out yet, because he beat the count before he had a chance to get to nine or ten (or even eight or seven, for that matter), it was the responsibility of the timekeeper to ring the bell and signal the end of the round and out the bout, this being the twelfth and final round.

The referee shouldn't have finished his counting, accoring to the rules. The reason the referee finished his counting is because the timekeeper failed to ring the bell the moment Bute made it up on his feet, without leaning over the ropes or holding onto them for support, as he, the timekeeper was supposed to do, according to the rules, signalling the end of the round. The referee didn't know that the round was over, because it's not his job to count the seconds left in the round. It's the timekeeper's job. Because the timekeerper didn't do his job, according to the rules, the referee assumed the round was not over at the moment Bute was up on his feet, without leaning over the ropes or holding onto them for support, four seconds after the end of the three minute period, six seconds after he got knocked down. The referee must have assumed there were still seconds left on to clock of the round. Because he wrongly thought there was still time left of the round, he CONTINUED his count even AFTER Bute was on his feet, without leaning over the ropes or holding onto the for support (at the six second mark), giving him the full eight count, accoring to the rules. (You always give a fighter a full eight count unless it was a flash knockdown, which this clearly wasn't, because Bute was hurt, even if he is ready to continue fighting before the end of the eight count)

The referee finished the eight count, because he wrongly thought there was still time before the end of the three minute period, because the timekeeper failed to do his job and ring the bell four seconds after the end of the three minute period, when Bute was up on his feet, without leaning over the ropes or holding onto them for support, six seconds after he was knocked down, two seconds before the end of the three minute period.

The referee then asked Bute to show him his gloves (the usual way referees ask fighters to signal that they are ready and willing to continue fighting). Bute raised his gloves and showed him his gloves, in the usual way, indicating he was ready and willing to continue fighting.

The referee then looked across at Andrade and started the fight. Bute took a step forward and the bell rang. The timekeeper rang the bell approximately two seconds after the referee restarted the fight, presumably, wrongly thinking that the two seconds left on the clock before Bute was knocked down needed to be added on after the referee restarted the fight. The timekeeper didn't know the rules and didn't follow them. He made a mistake. The clock doesn't get stopped the moment a fighter gets knocked down. It continues to run. What the referee does when he decides a knockdown occurs is he looks towards the SECOND timekeeper - the knockdown timekeeper and does the "T" symbol with his hands, asking him to start his clock. Then, the goes about pointing the other fighter in the neutral corner, and after the fighter goes into the neutral corner, the referee looks towards the seconds timekeeper, who gives him the number of seconds since the moment he was asked to count the knockdown by the referee. The referee then pick up the count from that number, counting the fighter who was knocked down. BUT the FIRST clock, the clock that keeps count of the number of seconds left on the clock still keeps running, because the referee didn't ask it to be stopped, as he does, for example, when he gives a warning or takes a point of. When a knockdown occurs, the referee doesn't stop the clock that counts the seconds left in the round. That keeps on ticking.

 

Yes, I know this is your problem. But as I've explained repeatedly, pointing towards the rules, Bute didn't need to be good to go. He needed to be up on his feet, without leaning over the ropes or holding onto them for support, AFTER the end of the three minute mark, AND BEFORE the referee had a chance to count him out for still being on the floor, for leaning over the ropes or for holding onto them for support. But the timekeerper didn't do his job and the referee didn't know the fight was over, so he continues the count and then deemed Bute OK to continue.

Again, I repeat, what the referee did or didn't do after Bute beat the count after the end of the round is 100% IRRELEVANT to the outcome of the fight, ACCORDING TO THE RULES, WHICH WEREN'T FOLLOWED, in this case.

NOW, I know you think Bute was out on his feet and in no position to continue after the referee gave him the eight count, and I know you think the referee should have asked him to prove that he was good to go by asking him to take a step forward, etc., but ACCORDING TO THE RULES, it is at the referee's discretion what measured to employ to decide whether the fighter is ready to continue or not, and it is at his discretion and his alone to decide whether those conditions were fullfilled. The referee decided that Bute was in a position to continue, asked him to confirm that by showing him his gloves, Bute did so, and he restarted the fight.

But I repeat, the referee should NOT have finished the count or even verified whether Bute was able or willing to continue fighting, according to the rules. According to the rules, Bute beat the count and the fight was over! But the referee didn't know that because the timekeeper failed to do his job, according to the rules! Because he didn't know that, the referee went on counting, giving Bute the eight count, deemed him good to go, asked him whether he was willing to fight on, Bute told him he was, and he restarted the fight. EVEN IF the fight had not been finished by then, in which case the referee should have done all that he did, it is the referee and the referee alone that is responsible for deciding whethet a fighter is able to continue. It doesn't matter, frankly, with due respect, what you, or me, or the judges or the timekeepers think.

NO! You cannot forget the timekeeper because he is crucial in all of this according to IBF rules. He was responsible for ringing the bell, signalling the end of the fight, four seconds after the end of the three minute period, when Bute was up on his feet, without leaning over the ropes or holding onto them for support, GIVEN THAT the referee had not yet counted Bute out before he had a chance to get himself in this position. IT'S THE RULES! YOU CANNOT IGNORE THEM!

The timekeeper CAN, AND IN FACT IS OBLIGED to ring the bell while the referee counts, according to the rules, AS LONG AS:

1. the fighter is on his feet without leaning over the ropes or holding on to them for support

AND

2. The referee has not gone past 8 when the fighter is in the position described above

AND

3. The figther is in that position AFTER the three minute period since the start of the round had elapsed.

It doesn't matter what you think, with due respect. It matters what the rules say.

NO!!! You get saved by the bell if:

You get knocked down close to the end of a round. The referee starts counting, Before he can count you out, the bell rings, so he stops counting and you've been saved by the bell, even though the moment the bell rang, you were still on the floor, leaning over the ropes or holding onto them for support. You then have one minute to get yourself up and ready for the next round.

Bute was NOT saved by the bell. He couldn't have been because the IBF rules don't allow it. The timekeeper is NOT allowed to ring the bell UNTIL the fighter is up on his feet, without leaning over the ropes or holding onto them for support, AS LONG AS:

2. The referee has not gone past 8 when the fighter is in the position described above

AND

3. The figther is in that position AFTER the three minute period since the start of the round had elapsed.

Of course I do not agree with this rule you'e just made up. I only agree with the rules that are pertinent to the bout in question - the IBF rules!

It's up to the referee to count or not only as long as the fight ISN'T OVER! But in this case IT WAS! But the referee didn't know it, because the timekeeper didn't ring the bell! The referee thought there was still time left on the clock, so he continued to count past the mark where he would have stopped had the timekeeper done his job and signalled the end of the round.

Here he did because the timekeeper didn't signal the end of the round, according to the rules! The referee had to, under these circumstances, because he was forced to assume there was still time left in the round, when in fact the round was over.

If the rules had been applied properly, the referee shouldn't even have gone past 6 with his count, because at that point:

1. Bute was on his feet without leaning over the ropes or holding on to them for support

AND

2. The referee has not gone past 8 when Bute was in the position described above

AND

3. Bute was in that position AFTER the three minute period since the start of the round had elapsed.

But the timekeeper didn't do his job, so the referee continued the count. Whether Bute wasfit to continue is immaterial, because the fight was over and he had beaten the count, so it goes to the scorecards. End of argument.

Whether you think the referee should have counted him out or not is immaterial again, EVEN IF the fight had not been over (which it was). It is the referee and he alone who had the responsibility of deciding whether Bute was fit to continue or not. He decided he was. NOT LEAST, even though it is again immaterial, Bute raised his gloves signalling he was ready to continue and took a step towards the middle of the ring when the fight was restarted and after the bell walked gingerly towards his corner unaided. But all that doesn't matter, really. All that matters is that he beat the count after the end of the fight. The timekeeper should have rang the bell, the referee should have stopped counting at 6 and the decision should have gone to the judges.

Trinity, I've just spent the better part of an hour and an half on a Sunday afternoon answering your questions. I hope it's made your day! If you are not satisfied with my answer, I'll bet my bottom dollar nothing could possily satisfy you. I hope it does, though. Now, since I did you the favour of going to all this time-consuming trouble, please do me the favour of reading my posts carefully until you feel you understand them before asking further questions or clarifications. I don't say this because I'm an arsehole but because I've had to repeat many of the same things I wrote before in direct answers to your questions, which I shouldn't have had to do if you had read my direct reply to you at all carefully. Thank you.

RULES:

http://www.ibf-usba-boxing.com/userfiles/File/IBF-USBA%20Bout%20Rules.pdf

VIDEO

http://fr.justin.tv/clip/f2fc320a168

 

After reviewing the play, there is no controversy.

 

More and more I'm starting to believe that too

 

Well, the rule says:

6. The bell will not save a boxer in any round of the bout. If a boxer is "downed" just before the 3-minute bell in any round, the referee's count shall continue and the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor.​

and not:​

6. The bell will not save a boxer in any round of the bout. If a boxer is "downed" just before the 3-minute bell in any round, the referee's count shall continue and the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor AS LONG AS THE REFEREE GIVES HIS APPROVAL OR INDICATES TO THE TIMEKEEPER THAT HE IS ALLOWED TO RING THE BELL.​

I'm not saying it's a good rule, but the rule is what it is and I think you make an unwarranted assumption by saying the referee has to be the SOLE final judge. Why would he need to be anyway? Isn't it obvious whether a guys is on his feet, whether his hands are off the floor, whether he is leaning over the ropes or holding onto them for support? If the timekeeper is not satisfied that he is 100% certain these conditions are met, he'd just not ring the bell, allowing the fighter more time to fulfill these conditions, or the referee to count him out, right?

The reasons it doesn't make sense for the referee to give a nod to the timekeeper to do anything at all, including to ring the bell are firstly, that the referee doesn't know how many seconds are left in the round. If there is more than 8 seconds left in the round, the count will have finished by the time the round is over anyway, and it will have been already decided by the referee, de facto, that he had beaten the count, so the timekeeper would not have had to play a role anyway in determining that the three conditions have been met by the fighter, and, secondly, that the referee has to pay as much attention to the fighter, to determine whether he has or hasn't beaten the count. He cannot afford to be distracted by looking at the timekeeper and giving him signals in the middle of the count, and, thirdly, because the referee could stop the fight at any moment during the count, calling it a TKO, f the fighter was really in no condition even to attempt to beat the count.​

It therefore makes much more sense from a practical standpoint to allow the timekeeper to also have a say in whether the fighter met the three conditions, in my view. Because of this, I wouldn't read more into the rule than it strictly allows for.​

Now you might say: What if Bute looked like he was on his feet, etc., the timekeeper rang the bell, deciding he had beat the count, only for Bute to collapse in a heap again. Shouldn't the referee have the sole and final say to avoid this situation?

Again, that would be immaterial. What happens AFTER the end of the fight is immaterial. If Andrade had collapsed from shear exhaustion after the final bell, would that have meant Bute KOed him? Of course not. You can win a fight, collapse the second it was over and die and your win would still stand, right?

It is immaterial, again, but Bute didn't collapse after the final bell. He walked gingerly to his corner. He then listened to the decision, celebrated, gave a press conference, went home, etc. Just another hard day at the office.

​

 

Of course there isn't, but there is an old saying: it takes ten wise men to remove the rock thrown by an idiot into the sea.