If you read the IBF rules, there is NO controversy. Bute won.

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by kotjinx, Oct 25, 2008.


  1. Balistik

    Balistik Member Full Member

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    May 12, 2008
    There is controversy. When Bute got up he still had his back against the corner and the referee didn't ask him to take a few steps forward instead HE walked towards him and wiped his gloves while Bute's back was still touching the corner. Could Bute have come towards the ref without falling? I don't know.
     
  2. kotjinx

    kotjinx Robotic White Boy Full Member

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    I'm doing the same thing I'm criticising other people for - adding stuff that's not in there and arguing that it's the truth or that it makes a better rule - I freely admit that.

    The other thing I admit is that your interpretation is more literal and probably closer to what is written there. However, I'll point out that the rule also doesn't state

    6. The bell will not save a boxer in any round of the bout. If a boxer is "downed" just before the 3-minute bell in any round, the referee's count shall continue and the bell will not ring until the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor AS DETERMINED BY THE PERSON RINGING THE BELL.

    So - by assuming the decision is made by the person ringing the bell - you're also adding stuff.

    If I wanted to argue my case further, I'd also note that the rule states that the referee's count shall continue. It does not mention the possibility of the bell interrupting the count. Under your interpretation - that's possible.

    You go on to say Isn't it obvious whether a guys is on his feet, whether his hands are off the floor, whether he is leaning over the ropes or holding onto them for support? I think this whole thread proves it's anything but obvious ;)


    You also make the following point I think you make an unwarranted assumption by saying the referee has to be the SOLE final judge. Why would he need to be anyway? To which I would reply that you're, quite possibly, making an equally unwarranted assumption by saying the bell man - who is mentioned in no place in the official rules as representing the IBF - has, at times, the right to make a vital decision and potentially decide the outcome of a fight. Frankly that's something I'm uncomfortable with, but then again - it could be just me.

    The rest is just you making a case for what you think works better or not. I never said the ref is giving a nod to ring the bell. He doesn't keep track of the time and is in no position to do that. What I was arguing is that the ref can make it clear to all in attendance, including the bell-man, whether he believes the fighter has beaten the count - e.g. by allowing the fight to continue - as happened yesterday. The bell-man then rings immediately and the fight is over. That's not very complicated and closer to what happened there than your theory - you'll admit that, right?

    So I'll stick to my guns - I think we're both reading things into the rule. What would or wouldn't work better in practice is an open question.
     
  3. kotjinx

    kotjinx Robotic White Boy Full Member

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    I didn't know that one. Nice quote. And sure as hell we didn't have to wait long for a rock hurler... :lol:
     
  4. kotjinx

    kotjinx Robotic White Boy Full Member

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    We don't need to know. And neither did the ref. That point has already been made and explained several times in this thread. I don't want to be an ******* but repeating the same arguments is getting tiring. If you disagree with what's been posted before on this particular issue, please let me know why and we can take it from there.
     
  5. Decebal

    Decebal Lucian Bute Full Member

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    It doesn't matter whether Bute is leaning against the cornerpost AFTER he got up on his feet. By getting up on his feet in time, without leaning over the ropes or holding onto them for support, he beat the count and the fight is over! ALTHOUGH 100% IMMATERIAL TO THE CONTROVERSY, whilst the referee was continuing to count him, Bute could have made a sandwhich for all it mattered, as long as he satisfied the referee he was ready to fight on at the count of eight, which, in this case, he did. The referee didn't ask him to take a step forward to prove he was good to continue, and there is no rule saying that this is what the referee must do. There isn't a set test one must pass; the referee is allowed to decide by any means he sees fit. In this case, the referee was satisfied by Bute lifting his gloves saying he was good to go:

    http://fr.justin.tv/clip/f2fc320a168

    Could Bute have made a step forward towards the referee without falling? We don't know, you're right, but it doesn't matter! The fight was over the second Bute was up on his feet, without leaning over the ropes or holding onto them for support. That's what the rule requires, and nothing else! Bute could have fallen flat on his face for all it mattered, after beating the count, because he'd have fallen on his face AFTER the end of the fight. It doesn't matter what happens after the end of the fight. You can die the very next second, and it doesn't mean you haven't won the fight.
     
  6. Decebal

    Decebal Lucian Bute Full Member

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    According to the rules, even if you interpret them in your way, the timekeeper should have rang the bell the moment the referee stopped counting, because if he stopped counting, it meant Bute was not being counted out. i.e. he had beaten the count. Right?

    But what actually happened was that the referee finished the count, asked Bute whether he was willing to continue, wiped his gloves, looked towards Andrade, restarted the fight, AND ONLY THEN did the timekeeper end he fight.

    So, the timekeeper didn't follow either my interpretation or yours. In fact, as we both know, he didn't have a clue and just made it up as he went along. We can all agree on that, I think. His lack of knowledge of the rules and failure to apply them led to some many people getting the wrong end of the stick.
     
  7. Decebal

    Decebal Lucian Bute Full Member

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    No, you didn't just say that. You said something very different, which doesn't even make sense:


    According to the rule, the bell will not ring after the 10 count is given, as you said, but after the the boxer rises and his hands clear the floor, as I said. There is a big difference of course, because the boxer can rise, his hands clear off the floor, before the 10 count is given. You assume the fighter is always getting knocked out, which is ridiculous. The rule has to allow for fighters to be able to beat the count too. You only get a 10 count, after all, when you are knocked out. Otherwise, you get an 8 count. In this case, specifically, Bute was on his feet, his hands clear off the floor, before the end of the 8 count, after six seconds. That is when the timekeeper should have rang the bell, to signal the end of the fight.
     
  8. Bazooka

    Bazooka Pimp C Wants 2 Be Me Full Member

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    The rules state that if the fighter has left the corner the ref can stop the count, but Andrade did not leave the corner, there is no footage that supports what the ref claimed.

    there was something fishey about this fight anyhow, why is it it took 11 rounds of Bute holding to get one single warning, I mean there was ALOT of holding by Bute for no reason what so ever, not a single warning was issued until round 11.

    also twice when Andrade had Bute in trouble, the ref saved Bute by stopping the action and warning Andrade, sorry but in world title fights, especially when its in the champions country, we already have bad judges to worry about, we need an experienced official in there to make sure that atleast the challenger gets a fair shot.
     
  9. catasyou

    catasyou Lucian Bute Full Member

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    Tape of the fight,ref interview post fight,footage proof during his interview,Andrade was closer to the middle of the ring than the corner and was taking a step toward the center.And btw Andrade headbutted all night
     
  10. Drew101

    Drew101 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The rule in question:

    Now...when the count is discontinued, it normally picks up at the point where it's left off. So, if the count stops at "six", it picks up at "six", rather than goes automatically to seven. That's why there was repetition in the count.
     
  11. kotjinx

    kotjinx Robotic White Boy Full Member

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    I've now watched the showtime broadcast in proper resolution. What it shows (and I'm including here all the replays we've seen during the interviews with the fighters and ref) is Andrade some 3 or 4 feet away from his corner (and he seems to be heading in the direction of Bute). The ref starts the count (if he was so biased why didn't he send Andrade to the corner straight away?). The camera then zooms in on the ref. He goes on and then after one or two seconds he starts yelling in the direction of Andrade. At no point during this broadcast do we get to see where Andrade is standing. The 3 or 4 feet that people mention is what the commentators (who clearly didn't even bother to read the official rules) said.

    So Divac, unless there were two different showtime broadcasts you are simply repeating what people said rather than what you've seen. You're not alone in doing that - if that's of any comfort. And this

    Showtime in the replays was even able to get a shot of the whole ring as the knockdown occured, and all through the whole count up to when the fight ended.

    is just a plain lie. We did get a shot of the whole ring when the knockdown occurred but not all through the count up to the end of the fight. Check out the replay on Wednesday and prove me wrong :yep
     
  12. Barber-ian

    Barber-ian Active Member Full Member

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    May 24, 2008
    Bazooka, I believe that point is immaterial. Regardless of what the ref was doing, Bute was up before the 10 count, as proven by video and documented over and over again on this thread. He was up before the 10 count.

    Also, there was fewer than 10 seconds left in the fight when Bute when down. That means that by the time he got up, the fight was over. Therefore, because he got up in time, he beat the count and the fight was over. I didn't matter at that point what the ref did, or for how long he did it. All that matters is that Bute got to his feet before 10.

    As for your other claims, that is a different argument altogether, and a bit of a red herring if you're trying to use it to argue the KD point, which is the point of this thread. Let me put it this way: The ref's handling of the fight up to the KD has no bearing on the question of whether or not Andrade should have been awarded the KO. None. Bute beat the count and the fight was over.
     
  13. kotjinx

    kotjinx Robotic White Boy Full Member

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    Aug 12, 2007
    I was never disputing the fact that Bute did beat the count. And I don't intend to change my mind now.

    Frankly, I don't think Bute was in a state to talk... The one thing I'm not sure is if the ref was looking in the direction of Andrade or the bell-man... (this obviously is a self serving comment).

    I think you're making too much of it - honestly. Ok the bell rang a second or two later than what you and I believe it should have. Who got the wrong end of the stick there, though?

    Frankly, I think that had the bell rang during the count - as you think it should - the shouts of robbery would have been even louder.
     
  14. Bazooka

    Bazooka Pimp C Wants 2 Be Me Full Member

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    That was just after he scored the knock down he was circling to his corner as the ref dirrected him, the ref turned around continued the count then stopped again, if you watch that replay it was just as Bute hit the canvas.
     
  15. Bazooka

    Bazooka Pimp C Wants 2 Be Me Full Member

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    Oct 23, 2005
    He got up but he fell into the ropes as well, his collar bone, both shoulders and chest area touched the top ropes, he also stummbled afterwards as well on the way back to his corner, he was knocked out.
    The ref dropped the ball here, sorry you cant really put spin on it, the rules state a fighter can not be saved by the bell including the 12th and final, when he got up his legs were not there, meaning he was out, the fight should have been ruled a TKO, I am sure the IBF will look into this.