If you read the IBF rules, there is NO controversy. Bute won.

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by kotjinx, Oct 25, 2008.


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  1. TheGreat

    TheGreat Boxing Junkie banned

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    The controversy comes from the lack of ethics and poor personal conduct of the ref involved, he basically gave Bute the fight, I hope there is an investigation that results in this ref being not only fined but BANNED as well, there is no place in the sport for his behavior.
     
    TheGreat, Oct 25, 2008
    TheGreat, Oct 25, 2008
    #31
  2. kotjinx

    kotjinx Robotic White Boy Full Member

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    Time it - I did. Bute was not on his ass after eight or at most nine seconds. That's a fact.

    I haven't seen evidence showing that Andrade was in his corner. The youtube video certainly doesn't show that. If you have other sources please post them.

    Irrespective, since Bute was up after nine seconds, the point is mute.

    The other things I don't want to argue about (I'm not claiming the ref did the right thing all night long).

    But ask yourself this: would any of it have changed the outcome of the fight if the knockdown had not happened? I don't think so, but my opinion is just as good as anyone elses...

    And when it comes to the knockdown, I believe the ref did the right thing.
     
    kotjinx, Oct 25, 2008
    kotjinx, Oct 25, 2008
    #32
  3. kotjinx

    kotjinx Robotic White Boy Full Member

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    Ok, sorry, my bad. I thought you were referring to the knockdown.

    Yes, I agree, Bute should have probably been counted before. And that might well have given Andrade time to finish him off.

    Does that make the fight a robbery? I wouldn't say so. Why? Well, as Drew 101 writes - you could argue that not giving Bute the count earlier actually played into Andrade's hands - as Bute was floating all over the ring and was easier to hit flush... As Drew points out - we will never now.

    And most people are not bitching about the ref not calling a knockdown earlier, but about the final count which, in my opinion, is totally irrelevant.
     
    kotjinx, Oct 25, 2008
    kotjinx, Oct 25, 2008
    #33
  4. divac

    divac Loyal Member Full Member

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    Thank God somebody brought out the rules, good job K!:good

    I was'nt sure if after the bell had rung, whether the ref had to determine whether the fallen fighter was fit to continue or not...

    .....we see now that after time has expired, as long as the fighter is on his feet, and not hanging on the ropes, he's deemed up, and the fight can go to the cards.


    Thats all fine and dandy......but who's to say whether Bute could have gotten up by the count of 10.......from what I saw on videotape, the ref stalled to even start the count, he sent Andrade to the neutral corner and then turned to Bute and just stared at him for a few seconds without even starting the count......

    .....then the ref starts the count and stops again to look at Andrade at the neutral corner.
    The thing is that Andrade never really left the neutral corner. He we was at the neutral corner about 2 or 3 feet away from touching the ropes.

    This ref was looking for any insignificant thing to buy time for Bute.

    1 He stalls to start the count

    2 He stops his count and admonished Andrade to get back to the neutral corner, even though he was already there.

    Where in the rules does it state that a fighter when going to the neutral corner, has to have his body right at the corner toughing the ropes????
    It does'nt say any of that, it just says the fighter tha scored the knockdown go to the neutral corner, which Andrade was at, and never left.

    I dont think any of us know for sure if Bute would have made the count and gotten up, had the ref started his count right away, right when he directed Andrade to the neutral corner to begin with.

    Maybe Andrade get up, and maybe he does'nt.
    The one thing we know for certain is that the ref did everything in his power to stall the count, and then starts yelling at Andrade to go to the neutral corner when he's already there.


    If the IBF has any integrity what so ever, they'll review the tape of that idiot bought off referee, and rule the fight a no-contest!

    Shame on that referee, and shame on the IBF if they fold their hands and do nothing about it!
     
    divac, Oct 25, 2008
    divac, Oct 25, 2008
    #34
  5. kotjinx

    kotjinx Robotic White Boy Full Member

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    If you could be more specific that would help.

    I think, and have said before, that it's not too difficult to argue that the ref was biased in Bute's favour. But, as I've said before, ask yourself this:

    Would you have been complaining if Andrade had not hurt Bute in the 12th? Would you have called it a blatant robbery as well?

    Perhaps. Perhaps you'd also want the official investigated. If so, then fair play to you.

    However, I think most people would have just been talking about the clinic Bute gave Andrade... The refs input in the preceding rounds would have probably been forgotten. So the only reaon many people are unhappy, I think, is because of the final seconds. And there the ref did exactly the right thing...
     
    kotjinx, Oct 25, 2008
    kotjinx, Oct 25, 2008
    #35
  6. Fitir

    Fitir Active Member Full Member

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    The rules OK but it's not the main problem. The belts are important but the unofficial ranking of the division is now easier to make. It's clear now that Bute is inferior to Kessler in several aspects of the game for example. What happened in the 12th will damage Bute's confidence. He has much heart, he kept his belt but it will be difficult for him now. If he had stopped Andrade he could have been considered the man of the division. Now it's clear he isn't and the challengers know he is far to be invincible. Andrade is not skilled and Bute had everything to succeed.
    Remember Bute hadn't even obtained this IBF belt against a champion since Calzaghe didn't defend it. He had to prove he was not another paper champ and he failed. He is still a titleholder but his legitimity as a champion is close to 0...
     
    Fitir, Oct 25, 2008
    Fitir, Oct 25, 2008
    #36
  7. eltabarnacos

    eltabarnacos New Member Full Member

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    A fact is for sure, Bute deceided to trade with Andrade for the SHOW in the 12th, and paid for that, and obviously learned a lot!
    He could have clinch all round and win the fight easily on points. But no, he traded, then went down, rise before the 10 count, was up after 36 minutes of the fight, could hardely continu but the fight was over.
     
    eltabarnacos, Oct 25, 2008
    eltabarnacos, Oct 25, 2008
    #37
  8. kotjinx

    kotjinx Robotic White Boy Full Member

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    Thanks - appreciated.

    I guess I disaggree on one important point. We do have video footage of what Bute did. You can time it, to figure out what he was doing when the ref should have been counting rather than yelling at Andrade (if you believe Andrade was innocent). Bute was up after nine seconds according to my stop-watch.

    So even had the ref not turned round, he should have ended the fight there and it should have gone to the scorecards. So in that sense, I think the ending is far less controversial than some people make it out to be. Had Bute been lying on the mat 10 seconds after the knockdown it would have been an altogether different story. But he was standing.

    Rematch? By all means!
     
    kotjinx, Oct 25, 2008
    kotjinx, Oct 25, 2008
    #38
  9. C.J.Rock

    C.J.Rock Active Member Full Member

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    I have NEVER seen such a blatent show of biased officiating in my life.
    How can the same referee Marlon Wright officiate over the last FIVE FIGHTS!!! Bute had. He's chosen for the very reason he made crystal clear Sat night. To ensure a Bute win. Diabolical
     
    C.J.Rock, Oct 25, 2008
    C.J.Rock, Oct 25, 2008
    #39
  10. kotjinx

    kotjinx Robotic White Boy Full Member

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    I'm with you. But what's the alternative?

    btw. Did Andrade's campe protest the choice of ref? It's not like the ref and judges were pulled out of a hat come fight night, right? If not, then he's partially himself to blame...
     
    kotjinx, Oct 25, 2008
    kotjinx, Oct 25, 2008
    #40
  11. kotjinx

    kotjinx Robotic White Boy Full Member

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    Kessler didn't stop Andrade either, right? The guy is tough and not knocking him out, is not necessarily a disgrace (fcuk - I can't believe I've turned into a Bute fanboy - I don't even particularly like him ;-) ). If you stopped watching after round 11 - you'd have said it was a clinic. Ok there was round twelve, and it should affect his rankings. As to confidence - I guess only time will tell.
     
    kotjinx, Oct 25, 2008
    kotjinx, Oct 25, 2008
    #41
  12. Irländsk

    Irländsk Boxing Addict banned

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    Surprisingly the referee knew the rules better than the majority of posters that love to scream robbery. Bute was up at the count of 8-9 and the final bell rang, Andrade was close but couldn't manage the KO and that is that. Bute controlled the first 11 rounds and will have to work on his stamina to make it as a top tier fighter at SMW.
    If Andrade performed better in the previous 11 rounds he would've pulled out the win, but he didn't. Bute is the rightful winner.
     
    Irländsk, Oct 25, 2008
    Irländsk, Oct 25, 2008
    #42
  13. Drew101

    Drew101 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I know that Andrade's trainer wanted neutral officials (although Howard Grant is also from Montreal, and knows Wright pretty well, apparently).

    In fairness to Wright, even though he officiated the last five fights of Bute's he never really was accused of showing untoward bias until this fight. And as Kotjinx says, the officiating wasn't the reason why Bute won eight rounds clean.
     
    Drew101, Oct 25, 2008
    Drew101, Oct 25, 2008
    #43
  14. kotjinx

    kotjinx Robotic White Boy Full Member

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    How old are you? Two? ;-) I've seen a lot worse.

    As to Marlon Wright: Did Andrade's campe protest the choice of ref? It's not like the ref and judges were pulled out of a hat come fight night, right? If not, then Andrade's partially himself to blame... Particularly if the ref was biased in previous fights...

    On its own, the fact that the IBF chose him for five high profile fights would tend to suggest he is a good official. And he certainly knew the rules and applied them correctly at the end.
     
    kotjinx, Oct 25, 2008
    kotjinx, Oct 25, 2008
    #44
  15. kotjinx

    kotjinx Robotic White Boy Full Member

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    Aug 12, 2007
    Thanks for that - that's interesting. Makes the IBF look slightly partial as well. In some sense it's an own goal they're scoring. In case of controversy they end up with egg on their face. So why do it?
     
    kotjinx, Oct 25, 2008
    kotjinx, Oct 25, 2008
    #45
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