I think this is an interesting scenario. Just imagine that Tyson fought Ali's opponent at the same age that Ali fought them in real life and that they had the same shape and mindset in the fight against Tyson as they had against Ali, and vice versa. This would for example mean that Tyson at 22 years of age would meet an over-confident and slightly aged Liston that's supposed to be invincible and that's feared all over the boxing world. Ali on his hand would at age 24 meet a supremely focussed and motivated Douglas, fighting the the best fight of his life. Besides from being nothing more than speculation this scenario also has some logical flaws, but I keep it this way because I think it's interesteing, and because it would become even more speculative otherwise. This is how I see it: FIRST CAREER: Tyson: He breezes thorugh his first 20 fights (easily defeats Moore, Jones, Cooper et al.) before getting a shot at Liston. This one is not easy to predict, though. Liston, as earlier stated, is slightly aged, over-confident and poorly prepared, but he's still formidable and Tyson never faced a test like this in real life, when the other guy was the scary and supposedly invincible one. But I'll give Tyson the benefit of a doubt here and say that he defeats Liston, even if Liston really makes a fight of it (at least in the first fight) and rocks Tyson several times before succumbing. After those victories Tyson starts to show a lack of focus, but beats guys like Patterson, Cooper, London, Williams and Mildenberger easily nonetheless. Tough Chuvalo takes many of his best shots, though, and has a somewhat lackluster Tyson in some trouble before eventually having to be saved by the ref. Terrell takes Tyson the distance by grabbing and holding for dear life, but Folley is quickly despatched. Tyson go into forced lay-off with a magnificient and unblemished record. Ali: He starts out strongly and easily dispatches a bunch of no-hopers. At the age of 20, after about 25 fights, he starts to get matched against the best in the business while still pretty green and not fully developed. He gets past big and slow Berbick but has more trouble against guys like Thomas, Tucker and Biggs, and actually come close to losing to Tucker, but rallies late to take home a close and somewhat controversial decision. He also has some trouble with Biggs. After that he rapidly picks things up again, though, and really start to put together some impressive wins. An old Holmes, Spinks, Williams and Bruno are all dealt with in style. Douglas surprises him, though, and keeps the fight close to until the 8 round or so, when Ali's superior stamina and workrate begin to make the difference. Tillman, Stewart and Ruddock presents him with little trouble, and when he's forced out of boxing his record is very impressive to say the least. SECOND CAREER (Here I no longer go by age since Tyson was in jail at the age Ali faced Quarry and Bonavena. Instead I go by time elapsed since their respective comeback. Ali therfore faces Lewis seven years into his comeback, which is the equivalent of him in 1977, for example) Tyson: He starts out with very tricky fight against Quarry and Bonavena, and takes on Frazier shortly thereafter. Since his timing and movement really isn't there yet and his stamina isn't that great so soon after his comeback I see him losing at least one of these. Over the remainder of his career he faces Frazier two more times, tough Cuvalo one more time and also guys like Foreman, Holmes, Lyle, Shavers, Young and Bugner. I see him losing two of the three fights with Frazier as well as his fight against Foreman and the two fights and the end of his career (Holmes and Berbick). I also see him losing two fights against the rest of his opposition during this time: Quarry, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Bugner, Lyle, Shavers, Young etc. This might seem harsch to some, but remember that I gave him the benefit of a doubt against Liston. The fights against Bonavena and Quarry would come when he was just starting his comeback, and the fights against Lyle, Bugner, Shavers and Young when he was well past his prime. It would be the equivalent of Tyson 2000-2002. I don't think it's unreasonable to say he would lose two of these fights. All in all he has seven losses in his second career. There are some good wins there as well, but he has come short against the best opposition (Frazier and Foreman). It doesn't really do his legacy much good. Some are going to point to his impressive first career and say that that shows his greatness, while others will say that he lacked serious competition in his first career and was exposed in his second. Claims will be made that Liston was "shot" and that Tyson didn't really prove anything. The debate will go on. Some will have Tyson in their top 5, others not even in their top 10. Ali: He doesn't have much problem against the first four (McNeely, Mathis jr, Bruno and Seldon), but Holyfield is a different story. But this is a buffed up Holyfield who lacks the speed and stamina that he had earlier. He's stronger and more powerful than Ali, but strong, powerful opponents have never really troubled Ali much. Through his superior speed, stamina and reach he can still keep Holyfield and bay without that much trouble. Holy also lack the jab to really bother Ali. He has his moments, but Ali wins a pretty clear decision in the end. The rematch is the same story, more or less. He has pretty easy opposition for the remaining five years. Golota is his toughest opponent during this time, but Ali still has too much skill and speed for him. But seven years into the comeback a faded Ali faces Lewis and loses. He has still enough guile not to be KO'd, but just barely. He wins his next fight, but loses the remaining two. At the end of the day he only has three losses, all of which has come when was over 35. Most have him at nr. 1 at HW, but some say that he lost to the only truly great fighter he ever met. That the biggest wins on his record are against a depleted Holyfield helps to enhance this criticism. But for most people he has proven everything he needs to. Your thoughts on this?
Excellent analysis, it's a shame that Tyson has to get sold so short in his second career though. You made the right picks, I think, but Tyson was never going to have great longevity putting him in with Frazier and Foreman (both of whom I wouldn't favor to beat him) so late in his career, after a lengthy amount of time off, is kind of misleading.
Well, that comes from this scenario. Tyson meets them when Ali met them. Of course he would have stood a much better chance against them in his prime, but he was always dangerous in the opening rounds and always had a punchers chance.
I pretty much agree with your analysis over their 'first' careers. Neither Ali or Tyson in reality should have too much problems with each other's opposition, although there may be one or two exceptions. Liston may have been Tyson's most dangerous opponent over the period, but he was a bit past it, and I would have been surprised to see a young, hungry Tyson lose to him. I feel Chuvalo would have been pounded to pulp, honestly. He was extremely tough, but for me he was nowhere skilled enough to make too much of a fight of it vs. Tyson. I see a stoppage inside 5 rounds here. On the flip side, I feel of Tyson's opponents, there may have been more than one fighter to give Ali some problems. Tucker, as you noted, in theory could ask one or two demanding questions of Ali, but I feel Spinks and oddly enough, Tubbs might have given Ali some problems too. Both were tough, smart fighters. Tubbs had pretty good speed for such a rotund guy, although Ali still pips him in this department. (The speed, not the rotundness. ) I'm not feeling Biggs to be honest. He was but a pup when he fought Tyson, and although boxers hate fighting boxers, I don't see Ali battling with Biggs. Biggs would be fighting a faster, better and by far tougher version of himself and for me would lose pretty much every round before getting stopped. In their first careers then, I'd give Tyson a slight nod over Ali. In their second careers, I think it'd be the opposite. Tyson's second career, Lewis and Holy aside, didn't include any really dangerous fighters. Golota was probably the best of these, but he was a nut case. I can't see Ali struggling with any of them. Holy, even an old version, I believe could well have beaten Ali - but it also depends, because Evander could be pretty inconsistent. I think Holy had a sufficient blend of skill and will to make life very tough for Ali. I can see him becoming Ali's Norton for the 90's. The only other threat on the horizon would be Lewis, be despite not being a spring chicken himself, was very well preserved for a 37 year old athlete. For my money, he'd be a bridge too far for Ali. The overall combination of size, power and skill would see him beat Ali, quite possibly on a stoppage. On the other hand, Tyson would have his hands full with the likes of Frazier and Foreman, both of whom I think would probably beat the Tyson of the mid to late 90's, who by that point had lost the aura of invincibility he enjoyed earlier, not to mention much of his desire and as well as some skill. I also think Lyle would stand a better than even chance, particularly as Foreman and Frazier would have softened Mike up some by then. Norton...I dunno. I hate to use the old cliched "Norton lost to punchers" line, but it is telling that most his losses were to punchers. He was a skilled fighter though. If he were to survive the first couple of rounds, he could win. He''d have to fight the right type of fight though...
It seems that we come to about the same conclusions. I don't think that Holyfield of the late 90's would be that much trouble for Ali, though. The fighters that gave Ali the most trouble all had high work-rate and was able to pressurise him because of this, but Holy didn't have that high work-rate at this time. I also think that Ali would win the battle of jabs quite handely and that would be important. If Ali came in in bad shape, though, Holyfield could make him pay for it. He was never easy to beat.
