Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Jay1990, Mar 10, 2019.
If Tua's power was so overated, why didn't Lewis go to war with him? Why did he box off the back foot all night?
Because he was a 6ft 5"giant boxing a 5ft10" midget. He was smart and utilized his advantages. Come on it's pretty obvious. Even then Lewis landed the only heavy shots of the fight. Tua slept walked through it. It was a dud performance by Tua in what was a a highly anticipated fight.
Lewis fought conservatively against Morrison as well even though he was clearly the dominant fighter there as well. Lewis wasn't risk averse but he played the percentages and generally employed a style,depending on the opponent, that benefited himself. That's part of the reason he was a great fighter.
No you. Those guys sat in the middle of the ring virtually the entire fight. Am I wrong? Their ring movement was pretty much absent.
Muhammad Ali would absolutely feast on opponents like them who can hardly carry a candle to him in the mobility department. A prime Ali? He’d dance circles around them and tear them up at will. It would look terrible for them. They’d be trying hopelessly to catch him. They’d be slow to the punch. By the time they start any kind of attack he’d be gone from range. He would counter and slice them to pieces. Tua would pose more of a threat with his left hook that Ali would have to pay extra attention to, but that’s about it. Once again Tua would have to hit a lottery punch. And if he catches Ali once, it won't be a cold clock KO, and he won't catch Ali again.
Frazier shows both Ike and Ike's fans he isnt what he/they think hes all cracked up to be.
Frazier TKO 9
Different class of fighter here
When strong proponents of modern HWs look at footage like this, do they actually notice the lack of mobility in these fighters?
Here is the last minute of round 2 of Tua vs Ibeabuchi:
This content is protected
Tua hardly moves his feet, and that's not some colorful exaggeration. He actually hardly moves his feet.
Let's look at how a prime Ali utilizes the ring:
It was certainly a dud performance from Tua,after sampling a couple of Lennox's right handers he opted for just going through the motions,none of which in any way reflects adversely on his genuine power.
So comparing Tua to Ali is valid ? Want to compare Ali to Johnson,Louis,Baer,Schmeling ,Braddock.
Indeed most any heavyweights look relatively stationary compared to Ali! Dear Oh me!
Frazier couldn't stop Bonavena in two tries, I highly doubt he is stopping Ike ,who whatever he failed to prove as a fighter,he did prove he had a very good chin!
I kind of agree with this, in that I think Frazier would win. But I don’t think it would be because Ike isn’t good, just I think Frazier is better (not to mention greater).
Ike is in a weird spot, probably not the supposed great his advocates declare him to be, but also not the one his detractors paint him out to be because we never saw him on the biggest stage under the brightest lights.
I probably wouldn’t pick Frazier to stop him unless this was a 15 rounder and only then in the 13-15th rounds. But I don’t need to diminish Ike to have Frazier best him. Frazier has been known to beat the goat and only 2 lose against 2 of the best ever. I guess because he lost to a challenger like Foreman that any boxer with a punch beats him now. Tua Ike heck he probably loses to Shavers in hypotheticals
Lewis respected Tua's power a lot more than Vitali's power.
That's very possible...I had Frazier stopping him not just based on his power but his high workrate. I don't think Ike could handle the combination of the two personally.
I like Joe to stop him not just based on his power but his work rate too. Once he gets in his groove I think things get very interesting in a negative way for Ike.
This is the way i see it:
-frazier at his best definitely beats byrd and could possibly beat tua. Frazier well suited for wearing down and relentlessly pursuing slick movers like Byrd and he was able to outslug and bang away with guys similar to tua like bonavena and Chuvalo. Those were ike's best opponents. Tua doesnt have the height and long arms to shove and wrestle and reposition frazier to time him the way foreman did, that isnt remotely how their fight would go. Theyd smother each other and have one hell of a phone booth battle. Honestly its a toss up between an in shape motivated tua and the workhorse prime Frazier. They both bring a lot to the table. The rest of ike's resume isnt worth mentioning and frazier blasts them out.
-ike at his best doesnt necessarily beat fraziers best wins. Lets get the obvious out the way, hed never in a million years beat an Ali who still had his legs and reflexes. Buster Mathis would give Ike trouble too he was an inch taller, had decent pop im his fists, great footwork, quick hands and high ring iq and the stamina to go 12. Id slightly lean toward ike 60/40 but i wouldnt be shocked at all if mathis pulled off a win. Quarry was an expert at dealing with big ponderous punchers like Ike (see the foster and lyle fights) and unless Ike stops him it could be a very thrilling battle. Those 3 aside, Ike definitely crushes ellis, stops or decisions Chuvalo, and wins a close decision over Bonavena.
Ike never lost but his career came to a sudden stop and we didnt get to see him against the big names. I dont see the confident pre Zaire Foreman losing to Ike but it would be a hell of a slug fest either way. Post Zaire Foreman is anyones guess. I could also see even Manilla Ali mustering the strength to drag Ike into deep waters or stopping him late.
So when comparing opposition and who they actually beat, frazier clearly has the advantage. What about h2h?
-devastating body puncher
-good variation switching between high and low mid combo.
-better head movement
-higher ring IQ
-more experience against top notch opponents
-taller and longer reach
-more power in both hands
-possibly better chin
-better punch variety including a better jab
-didnt swell as much as Frazier and was more athletic
-both had insane work rate
-both had great stamina
Frazier brings more to the table no matter how you look at it. 2 of Ike's best qualities (his high work rate and stamina) Frazier can match if not arguably surpass him. This means that Frazier having a 7:5 ratio in advantages becomes even worse if you add the 2 areas where theyre even. They simply arent on the same level and we dont have enough evidence in Ike's resume to assume that his *alleged* punching power and chin advantages would be enough to tip the scales in a war.
Both at their best, Frazier wins 6/10 but it would be a very dangerous fight as Ike had a powerful jab to bust him up and Frazier could potentially run into too many of Ike's bombs on his way in. If he can slip past the jab and avoid getting bombed out, then at some point Fraziers superior experience, head movement, and inside fighting would give him the win more often than not.
Did Frazier ever have a higher work rate than Ike in his battle with Tua?