It seems to be becoming a sort of general consensus thing lately that Williams is one of the very top lightweight guys at 135. I sort of agree, but on his best night, what 135 elite (i mean people along with Duran etc.) guys do you see beating him? I think i may have one in here in Ortiz, these guys are both of the very highest tier at this weight imo, i personally Ortiz number 5 and Williams 6. Anyway, the style match-up- Williams would normally use a good jab on the outside patiently, not really trying to do damage, but it think it was a bit of a range-finder, and also picked up a lot of pnts. Not a range-finder like Duran's, Williams would be more stationery, or patient, and be waiting to explode, like he did on Beau Jack, when he opened up on a guy ion his best night it was usually curtains. But Ortiz really may have been a complete fighter, at least in a technical sense. His movement was very good, and his in-fighting was also. I actually think he could outbox Williams, would be a thrilling fight as both were warriors and would mix it up aswell, this is where Williams would be able to win this one imo, as he was faster and more poweful for me. But i see Ortiz doing what he has to and getting the better of a closeone on the cards where his boxing edges it for him. This would be a bout where it leaves you in awe thinking you have just seen pugilistic greatness and two guys giving everything and leaving it all in the ring. What do you guys think, maybe i got it wrong? I think my analysis is alright though
Interesting bout, these are the two fighting it out for the #5 spot on my ATG LW's list as well. Ortiz was a better boxer than Williams, and smart enough to keep the bout at a boxing distance, which is where I see him getting the better of Williams. Ortiz also had a good body attack, and if he tried to get the better of Williams on the inside, it's possible he takes a hurting. I'd pick him to outbox Williams though.
Good post Pea and thanks for the insight. You and i are so on the same wavelength on this one its almost telepathic!!!!
Both have enough power to hurt each other, but both have the durability and savvy to outlast each other. They're both quick fisted, strong, more than able boxers and solid combination punchers. We know this already and it doesn't get us anywhere, so, like with other close fights (Napoles-Gavilan, Armstrong-Saddler) where so many attributes are equal, it comes down to complexities and specifics. Personally I believe it's all in the jabs... If you watch a young Ortiz, light on his feet, snapping out that jab with cautious authority, it's not hard to picture him scoring points on Williams' nose. Another one for underrated footwork, Ortiz would probably be able to slip, parry or glide out of the way of many Williams attacks and counter with that jab. He was too much of a smooth operator to get involved where it wasn't needed but wouldn't have a problem fighting on equal terms on the inside if he got caught out once or twice, although I would expect Williams to have the edge at this close distance. But it's never as easy as it sounds... If you watch Williams, although he holds his hands low (differs in some fights to others though), when he jabs, his shoulder is tucking his chin and his right hand comes up like Joe Louis' did ready to parry - not to mention his reach advantage. Ortiz would have his work cut out but I reckon he'd pull it off. He'd just have to be very careful.
Manassa. How do you see Buchanan getting on against Ortiz and Williams? He sure has the boxing ability on the outside. Buchanan wasn't the type of boxer with movement who needed to stand stationary while getting off with punches, then get on the move again. Move-stop-punch. He could punch effectively while on the move, especially behind the jab. As you know, Buchanan doubled and tripled the jab no problem. Average inside as he liked that bit distance to showcase his strengths. If your straight up and down and cautious, your going to have problems outboxing and geting the better of a master boxer like Buchanan over the distance. He had a solid chin as well. He was a nice package without being complete with devastating power. How does Buchanan fair against the aggressive Williams and the fellow boxer in Ortiz?
I reckon... Buchanan UD15 Williams Ortiz UD15 Buchanan I'm well educated on Buchanan. A genuine great.
.....there is a part of me that screams, "I am underrating Ike Williams". Personally, he is one of those fighters that can shoot up or down the charts depending on more film. Unfortunately, there isn't much. I've said this on another forum in the past, but we are also missing footage on his contemporaries such as Beau Jack & the Bobcat. Ortiz, fortunately, has quite a number of film.
I think Carlo Ortiz was one of the cleverest, craftiest boxers of all time. I know Ike Williams was great in his era too, but Ortiz would outsmart him and win a decision over 15 much like he did against Joe Brown, even though I know that Williams was a better fighter than Brown. Ortiz was too smart.
Like OLD FOGEY correctly wrote, ortiz had no weaknesses. He was a complete fighter, he would outsmart Williams IMO. Ortiz UD Williams
Thanks for all the opinions everyone, I didnt expect so much agreement in the outcome of this one by the way
Another vote for Ortiz from this corner, but I will say though that if these two fought several times Ike would have gotten the upper hand on Carlos once or twice.
