Ike Williams

I do not rate Williams Higher than Duran so I will not go there.

On Leonard...It is the same reason why I rate Ezzard Charles Above Gene Tunney. Both Tremendous Boxers who beat the best of the era...I just honestly think Boxing Technique by the 1940s had improved compared to technique during the 1920s. Benny Leonard was a great fighter, but he did certain things in the ring that fighters stopped doing post 1940....for example benny leonard fought with his hands by his waist which I think is a big no no..he also never moved his head, and usually kept his chin sticking out. I don't think Benny Leonards fast jab from his waist was as elegant and smooth as Ike Williams throwing a pistol like jab from his left temple. Ike on the otherhand fought with a modern gaurd chin tucked elbows in, etc...with modern head movement...I just prefer both Ezz and Williams styles over Tunney and Leonards.

Both Williams and Leonard have outstanding resumes...Leonard was the more consistent one. I think Williams era was a slightly better one, but most will disagree with me and I come to accept that. Again its a Modern Styles thing. Overall I think Accomplishments wise..its a wash...and h2h I give Ike the nod so he rates higher on my scale.


I tend to rate Complete Boxer-Punchers very high on my lists(Joe Louis, Sonny Liston, Ezzard Charles 175lb, Ike Williams, etc) While usually the fast slick boxers play 2nd fiddle.

 

I have been watching Ken Buchanon footage and highlights and I must admit, I am HIGHLY impressed. The man has top 10 ATG skill level.

Disagree on Whitaker. He would be outmatched for once believe it or not. Whitaker's ability to make people miss was godly like, but we are talking about the greatest all around puncher in Lightweight history..and one of the best all time. A man who throws precious accurate shots like Barry Badrinath shoots beer pong. Sure Ike could make Williams miss for 2-3 7-8 rounds...but 15? I dont think so...eventually Ike is going to time Whitaker and he will take Pernell out somewhere late while slightly behind on cards. Williams phenominal jab and long arms will actually keep the persistent pernell at bay throughout the fight and frustrate pernell to the point where he cannot get in his fabulous underrated left uppercut. Pernell was fantastic at winning flurry exchanges, but with williams aggresivness and amazing handspeed...it will be tougher than pernell thinks. Pernell will outbox Ike at the angles(Ikes weakest point)...but pernell will eventually find himself straight down the pipe of one of Ike's combinations and that will be alll she wrote. I think Williams will get him. I do.

 

I thought Laguna outboxed Buchanan in the first fight, and had clearly lost a little something in the second fight, when Ken got on top of him.

I actually think Laguna has a better chance of outboxing Williams than what Buchanan does. Maybe Ike finds a way to knock Laguna out, but he will be hitting Buchanan a lot more than he will Laguna imo.

Buchanan's defensive abilities are overrated quite a bit. He got by a few times because of his greater grit and stamina more than his boxing acumen and cuteness.

 

Maybe. Given Ike's record against boxers of a LESSER quality than Whitaker though: unlikely. If guys like Willie Joyce, Wesley Mouzon and Freddie Dawson can hold their own against him, I think Whitaker can too, probably a little more so.

 

In terms of Ike's placement amongst the lightweights, he could be as high as no.1, depending on what you emphasise. He probably has the greatest resume of any lightweight.

Guys like Duran, Leonard, Ross, Whitaker were more consistent, but faced inferior foes on the whole.

There's not too much of Ike's best left on film for us to judge and so as time goes by we may become biased against him, as we have with other great lightweights that don't have much film (Gans, McFarland, B. Leonard etc) but he was really, really highly rated in his day, and given some of the names that were around at the time, that speaks volumes for him.

 

I have him borderline top 5.

1. B. Leonard
2. Roberto Duran
3. J.C. Chavez (Though his whole body of work may bias this)
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Joe gans
6. Ike Williams



Keith

 

IMO he is interchangeable between 1-3 depending on what your subjective analysis when placing fighters. Their only a handful of fighters I would give a chance of beating him in his prime at that weight, not to mention his resume was pretty stacked. His thrashing of Beau Jack was hard to watch as the ref should of definitely stepped in earlier:!:

 

Armstrong would swarm all over Buchanan similar to what Duran did, very bad stylistic match up for Ken.

where would you rank him now, out of interest?

I have seen the fight afew times and have always had Ken winning by 1 point and it always comes down to the last round for me. Very close fights i think the split decision was warrented. Laguna wasnt as good in the second fight as you say but Ken beat him very convincingly and maybe Ken did get better from the first fight also.

Laguna actually might have the better chance, hes quicker on his feet than Buchanan and harder to hit but lacks the grit, determination and stamina of Buchanan. I could definitly see Laguna sneaking a win from Williams like he did against Ortiz with his movement and quick shots.

Buchanans defence is overrated but i rate him very highly on ring generalship he is one o fthe best ring generals i have seen. He controlls a ring very well and can dictate the range, distance and tempo of a fight almost naturally. The only time he has trouble at this is with a swarmer like Duran did to him or someone like Armstrong. I dont see many out ring generalling Buchanan but whoever does will beat him.

great post on Buchanan. I agree with all of that.

As i have said above i really think the swarming style Duran employed that night was all wrong for Buchanan he could have never won that night. The Duran who was more realxed and a more rounded boxer later in his Lightweight career would have had more trouble with Buchanan.

Also Duran says evryone was his toughest opponent

also what film is available of Ike Williams as i have never seen him and after reading this thread i'm intrested in him.

 

Ike has always been my favorite boxer.

 

thats where i would place him.
been watching alot of him recently: Laguna 1 and 2, Navaro, Ishimatsu, and afew highlights