I'm really undecided on legacy of Joe Frazier vs Jack Dempsey who to rate higher

Looking at resumes I would say it's fairly easy. The win over Ali separates them if nothing else. Even Quarry and Ellis is arguably better than anyone Dempsey beat with the exception of Sharkey, and he beat them both more convincingly than Dempsey beat Sharkey. Hell, even Foster is a better scalp than Carpentier, and I would say that Frazier's victory was more decisive here as well.

 

I'm not going to say anything with any real convinction, but if you want my vote, then I pick Joe Frazier as deserving of a higher rating. Sure, he has his shortcummings as do all champions, but cleaning out the division, beating Muhammad Ali and fighting the men that he needed to fight is enough for me. Some will criticize that he never faced some of the bigger sluggers of the 70's, but most of them weren't top raters during his reign anyway. The best fighters of his time were Ali, Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena, Mathis, and Foreman. He faced all of them and beat most. He also didn't take a three year hiatus from the game to chase after celebrity women while sitting on the title and his sole losses came against two men who are commonly in most peoples top 10.

 

It depends on what we are talking about. Head to head list? Legacy? Career longegivty? Who beat better competion?


Head to head lists, I say Dempsey. He had the better chin, batter two fisted power, more range, better foot speed, and better height and reach.

Legacy? Dempsey.

Who beat better competition? Frazier. He has the Ali win, but he is also 1-4 vs Ali and Foreman. I think Dempsey could win one match vs the same fighters as well, perhaps more.

 

My list changes on an almost weekly basis particularly where heavys are concerned. However, I normally have Joe somewhere in the lower part of the top 10, with Dempsey just outside of it.

 

For me it's Frazier.

Several points that speak for him:

-Cleaned out the heavyweight division between '67 and 71 with dominant wins over Quarry and Ellis as well as good wins over Bonavena (2x), Ramos, Machen (the same that beat Quarry), Chuvalo, Mathis and destroyed one of the all time great lightheavyweights in Foster (compared that to Dempsey-Tunney).

-Beat a prime (not peak) Ali, in my opinion the best incarnation of Ali during the '70's and this is probably the single best and most valueable win in history of boxing, alongside Louis vs Schmeling I and Tyson vs Douglas.

-Has one of the best left hooks in history that only one opponent (Foreman) could escape from.

-The worst fighter he lost to is George Foreman. Not bad.

-Beat a ranked top10 contender and big puncher (what is supposedly his poison) in only his 14th pro fight. This is quite a unique feature in heavyweight history. By this point, Liston lost to lightheavyweight semi-journeyman, Tyson was beating cans as were Foreman and Dempsey, etc etc.


Points where he lacks:

-Relatively short career. No denying here. Between '67 and '71 he was very active, but his schedule was not as dense between '72 and '76. He was still consistently ranked in the top3 though, so a grand total of 9 years at the top is not THAT bad. By comparison, Dempsey was at the top from '18 to '27, the same amount of time. If you factor in that Dempsey sat idle on the title for a full three years, Frazier has the edge.

-People will bring up that he's 1-4 against Ali & Foreman. This is true but statistics can be deceiving and in this case they certainly are. First of all, Frazier was clearly past his best for 80% of those fights. Second, how many fighters in history had to deal with those all time greats 5 times? Dempsey's closest comparison is two 10 rounders with a lightheavyweight in Gene ****ing Tunney.

If Dempsey fights Ali & Foreman five times from 1922 until 1927 and does as good as Frazier did, i'd be surprised. Because it should be noted, and this is lost in the statistics, that Ali-Frazier II could've gone either way and the third fight was very close as well. The Foreman fights weren't competitive, but then again, Firpo had Dempsey down three times in '23; would he have done any better against Big George than Frazier did?

Dempsey, although not by knockout, lost 19 of the 20 rounds against Tunney, as much as a landslide you can get. And that's against a lightheavyweight, not a huge punching Foreman.


Now, what is the real difference?

Frazier fought great opposition, Dempsey not so much. Some will say "you can only beat who they put in front of you", but this is where is goes wrong. Wills was the #1 contender for seven years and Dempsey set a historic ducking record by avoiding him for all that time. He never faced Greb, either. Earlier in his career he wanted no part of Langford and Jeannette, when Frazier was beating Bonavena. Basically, Dempsey only won half the championship because the other half was excluded from competition. Another clear edge for Smokin' Joe.

 

I think this is about as good as anyone is going to do on this topic Chris.:good

 

I rate Frazier higher for the reasons given by Mr Magoo and Chris Pontius. No sense retyping them.

 

legacy wise I think it belongs to Dempsey. Sure most this this legacy is OUTSIDE the ring, but still, Dempsey is up there with John Wayne and Clark Gable.

Living it up large in the 20's, the brawl with Firpo, breaking the banks in Shelby. His battle with Carp in the first Million $ gate. Hollywood movies staring well Dempsey. Broadway also. Marrying movie stars. Than his Million $ gates with Firpo, Sharkey, Tunney 1 and II. Than the long count.
legacy WISE that puts him over Frazier. Ring Wise, I think Joe wins.

Oh yeah, and Dempsey is a icon, He is Hulk Hogan to boxing.
I suppose Ali is the Hitman heart.

 

Another terrific post by Chris ... a few additional thoughts ... I actaully feel Ali was better in 1972 than against Frazier in Superfight 1 ...

Dempsey either stops Frazier early or loses ... no way I see him winning a war of attrition with Joe ... however, it is possible as Quarry went to war with Joe and nailed him solidly in round one and Quarry did not hit anywhere as hard as Dempsey did ...

Since Foreman is the only man whoever actually managed to get Joe early, I have to go with Frazier ... Dempsey to me remains the most unproven commodity of any heavyweight legend ... I say this loving the guy ...

 

Joe Frazier. He was bigger, stronger, more talented, fought in a better era, beat better opposition.

 

Agree with everything here.:good