In defence of Jess Willard and Primo Carnera

When did Jack Johnson actually get a W over Battling Jim Johnson? That was a draw and a hotly disputed one at that.

Interesting thesis at the end here. Certainly the old boxing gyms in the US are largely a thing of the past, but with the disappearance of the American Heavyweight (be it black or white) we concurrently have the emergence of the former Easter Bloc heavies, who for almost the entire 20th century were not allowed to participate in the decadent Capitalist professional ranks.

Oddly enough, even when looking at the halcyon days of the heavyweights, it has never been a deep division. No, not even the beloved 70's, when the majority of heavies merely basked in the reflected glow that was the pop culture phenomenon of Ali.

 

"When did Jack Johnson actually get a W over Battling Jim Johnson?"

Thank you. You are right. That brings it down to five. Jack Johnson did not actually get a victory in that fight.

*It seems almost all the rising heavyweights are from Eastern Europe or at least Europe. It is curious that so many of the top ones are so relatively aged.

Any thoughts on why that is so?

 

Mendoza

"I would say Hall-of-Fame big men have a longer shelf life in boxing, because they can hit often and not get hit as much."

Just curiously, of Wlad, Vitali, Joe Louis, and Muhammad Ali, which one was outweighed most often in fights?

*I don't have the weights of every early fight of Wlad and Vitali, but of what I can get from boxrec, these are the stats:

Wlad--outweighed 25 times (59 total fights--weights not available for all)

Vitali--outweighed 12 times (45 total fights--weights not available for all)

Louis--outweighed 17 times in 71 fights

Ali--outweighed 18 times in 61 fights

So relative to his opponents, Louis seems to have been the largest, with Vitali probably second. Louis and Ali had size advantages more often than not, and weight advantages more often than Wlad and nearly as often as Vitali.

If Wlad and Vitali don't get hit as often, it is because their opposition is just nothing like the opposition Louis and Ali faced. No surprise to me. There were just many more good athletes in a heavyweight division from 175 to 220 than there is in the modern giant division of 210 to 280 or so. These big guys just aren't that athletic, so a relatively skilled fighter has a much greater advantage than the old champs did.

*I don't know about the not getting hit, though, if against good opponents. Wlad and Vitali have been stopped five times between them, three times before the 10th round. Louis and Ali were only stopped three times between them, only once (an old Louis by Marciano) in less than 10 rounds.

 

Well, take nothing away from Johnson. I think he aged rather well but was jaded, distracted and not very motivated.

Athletes in general are performing better at an advanced age. Hell, I was shocked to note last night that Sergio Martinez is 36! B-Hop, Vitali, Wlad, Paq, Mayweather, Marquez... not a young crew but a large portion of the cream of the current crop. And let's not forget how well Holmes and Foreman did in the 90's. I think the age of the Eastern Euro heavies has less to do with their appellation than progress in sporting medicine and preparation.

 

I think one could just as easily argue that the old-age performances of Holmes, Foreman, and Holyfield, and even the lighter weight guys, reflect the decline of boxing in popularity which has been going on for decades, and with it a decline of young talent.

What about other sports? Is there a great expansion of old-age performances? I don't know. In American baseball there were some great old-age performances by Mark McGwire, Roger Clemans, and Barry Bonds, but all seem to have been based on steroids. I don't know if that is true of boxing.

Even in golf, Tiger Woods seems to be showing a typical slippage with age.

 

I think it has mostly to do with less intense career and fight schedules. Also leaving the amateurs late as ****.