In Defense of Jack Dempsey {article} + The great trainers and fighters on Dempsey

Burt, what's the difference between this twenty pounds and a 187 pound Dempsey fighting a 204 Frazier or a 215 pound Ali ? Why are only Dempsey and Marciano allowed to jump weight and assumed to dominate ?

 

I love and respect them all too ... I just enforce reality into debates too often dominated by revisionist history, ethnic pride, childish notions (and participants) , fables and highly flawed arguments ... I am a fan of all of the great heavyweights ... it's the fanatical fans I enjoy making sport with and of ...

 

I dont think there are many who would assume Dempsey and Marciano to dominate Ali and Frazier.
They'd have a good chance of victory though.

Just as a 212 pound Ali would have a great chance of beating a 245 pound Lennox Lewis. In fact, I would expect Ali to beat him clearly, and make him look a bit silly.

 

He Grant - you're starting to sound childish now - this really smacks of :|:| thats not fair - you clearly have something of an issue with Marciano and Dempsey - so maybe we should just leave it there with you - if you can't see the reasoning behind this question then you don't really stand up as a very good judge of boxing really - any decent fight fan can figure this question in their head??

 

1. One you can't ENFORCE reality into a theoretical/fantasy/imaginary debate - you can only let it be a guide

2. YOU mention Revisionist history??!!

3. Ethnic pride?? What has this to do with anything - you brought it up so I guess you have some kind of problem with ethnicity - and I'm guiessing it's towards white people considering all your frustration so far has been directed at Dempsey and Marciano seemingly :yep

4. You're not a fan of ALL great heavyweights because you tone betrays the issues you have with Dempsey and Marciano so I wouldn't guess you're a fan of those

 

I agree ... my argument was for Greb and the weight based on speed and style ..

 

There is a vast difference between a 160 pound fighter [Greb] and a 187-90 pound heavyweight [Dempsey], than the difference in weights for heavyweights...A big difference..
A heavyweight such as Dempsey [190 lbs] and Joe Louis [200 lbs], were big enough to absolutely destroy behomiths weighing FIFTY pounds more, because they were big enough, strong enough ,and fast hitting enough
to cope with bigger men...
Nat Fleischer always contended that a man of 190 pounds and up to 200
pounds was big enough to whip anyone of any weight, because I believe there is the law of diminishing returns..After a certain weight,heavyweights must lose speed, dexterity and stamina....
Todays larger dreadnoughts probably have the same size lung or heart
capacity of much smaller men...It is like a 6 cylinder car dragging a trailer behind it...Excess weight = less flexibility. I believe...
Why are there no 200 pound gymnasts in the Olympics ? Bigger[heavyweights] is not necessarily better...
That is why the oldtime trainers ,brought leaner heavies into the ring for their bouts...Aside from a Tony Galento, the old time heavies were much more fit and less bloated than the big boys of today...
Example= Max Baer had the widest shoulders on a heavyweight I ever saw...His weight was 210-215 in his prime...Today the trainers would have
brought him in the ring at 230 pounds or more, easily...Baer certainlyt had the frame for that...Today Baer would be bigger...But would he be better.
The answer is NO...Diminishing returns, I believe....

 

Disagree. Valdes was 7-3 in his last 10 fights going into the liston fight. 6 of the 7 wins came against men who were rated in the top 10 at one time in their careers. 4 of the 7 wins came against men who were top 10 rated when valdes beat them(Dejohn 2x, Carter, McMurtry). This is impressive. Going into 1959, Valdes was the # 2 rated heavyweight contender in the world and arguably the front runner for a direct shot at floyd pattersons crown.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...=4024,3605822&dq=nino+valdes+title+shot&hl=en

In fact Valdes was considered such a serious contender going into 1959 that people were calling for Patterson to be stripped of the title for failing to fight Nino Valdes, and proclaim Valdes champ instead

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...=4617,3802464&dq=nino+valdes+title+shot&hl=en


Yes. Valdes did suffer two setback losses in 1959 that took him out of the top 10..but he proved subsequently with a cuts stoppage over future title challenger Brian London that he was still a big dangerous fighter in a small division. Valdes himself said he could still hit very hard when he fought Liston, and a fighter of Valdes style...punching power is the most important thing to still retain. At 6'3 211lb, he was plenty big and plenty strong..he easily dominated McMurtry in that film we see. Valdes also had a very effective left jab, probably one of the divisions best. He had the size, power, jab to challenge Liston...even if he didn't have the reflexes anymore.

You think Valdes looks worse or Firpo looks worse? I think Valdes looks far better. Firpo is very unskilled, has no clue how to throw a jab, doesn't know what the word "Balance" means, and looks physically "soft". Sure, he had a big right hand. So did Valdes. Difference is Valdes had a very elegant long left jab which was used to dismantle ezzard charles in 53(Something Firpo would never be capable of doing). Valdes also has fair boxing skills...Something firpo completely lacked.

 

Firpo was a bigger puncher ... he also was tougher .. Putting aside the Hurricane Jackson bout I have never seen Valdez look like anything special ... he was just a decent sized heavyweight in an era of cruiserweights ..

 

:roll::roll::roll: O ya, why don't you tell us all how firpo was an all time "Murderous" Puncher then write off rex layne.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xucbDkwcH5A[/ame]
I wouldn't call Firpo a bigger puncher than Valdes at all. He certainly was nowhere near him in terms of fighting ability.

 

Found this earlier so thought I'd just add it to the thread for anyone who's interested to see it - this was one of two occassions that Dempsey and Wills signed to meet

This content is protected

 

Thanks Rocky for showing this again...
NOTE, the size of Dempsey's hand..It was described as looking like a shovel....I'll bet when this photo was taken [not in training] Dempsey
was about 205-210 ,walking around weight...Just a guess...b.b.

 

great photo, never seen it before. it has a typical 20s aura about it too, with the cigars and the suits...

 

Very clear vid of Valdez, he looks good in attack but awfully easy to hit with any class of left hand.
ps
Dont rate Firpo much.

 

yeah I'd be interested to know what Dempsey's average walkabout weight was - he certainly looks broader across the chest and shoulders than Wills - your right about Dempsey's fist too - wonder if anyone ever said to Harry Wills be careful what you wish for......?