In his prime, Liston was unstoppable

A fair assessment.

 

It's interesting how many write off his destructions of Patterson like they were no big deal .. well no one else ever came close .. Ingo surprised him once and was flattened twice after .. Floyd with a crippling back wet 12 w a prime Ali .. he then went on to beat or fought very competitively w Machen, Quarry, Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena and had a interesting rematch w Ali .. I'm not saying Sonny was unbeatable but the man was terrific at his best for sure.

 

I respect your opinion and in truth you have some good points. But in fairness I think you are brushing aside some of Patterson's accomplishments to nonchalantly. Winning the lineal title at age 21 is something that's happened only twice in the history of the heavyweight championship. Regaining the lineal title is something that never happened prior to 1960 and only a few times thereafter. coming back from a devastating defeat against a tough challenger and beating them twice convincingly in the return isn't something that everyone can do. And dismissing his accomplishments AFTER he fought Liston doesn't sit well with me. He was past prime after all and those wins made a statement about how good he really was when prime. it should furthermore be considered that Floyd was a comparatively small man fighting in through probably TWO eras of talented big men. Who knows what he might have accomplished in a period that was void of men like Sonny Liston and Muhammad Ali.

 

liston is overrated most of the time nowadays. that he quit twice is indicative of lacking mental toughness which any great or near great must have; even a heavyweight. i dont see him beating when the big money is up jeffries, johnson, dempsey, tunney, schemling, louis, ali, older foreman, holmes, holyfield. he was an excelllant fighter and heavyweight who could beat most of them just not great imo

 

I don't agree that those two fights proved a lack of mental toughness.
I believe Liston had pressures on him regarding those two fights we'll probably never know about.
It may have taken more courage for him to quit and throw away his title than to have fought.

 

I'm sorry but the enlarged part shows that you have written sheer crap. Ali actually ridiculed the guy. In both fights Ali showed his more sadistic side. Patterson, NEVER LOOKED like winning.

 

I disagree on the unstoppable thing.

He's a pendulum guy, kind of like a Tyson. When he wins, he can blow out good fighters. If he loses, he looks so mediocre.

The other big big factor to me is, when you look at ther all time great heavies, you see a great corner. You sure don't see that with Liston. Lack of a top corner is going to cost him once in there with the alltime greats. That's a huge gap in pre-fight preperations.

 

As far as outstanding contenders from all of history go, I think Liston in 1960 must have appeared the best challenger ever. Even Joe Louis had been knocked out before challenging for titles and Mike Tyson had not beat real contenders on his way up. Liston was the best sure thing before fighting for the title.

What crippled the progress of champions of the 1950s-1965 period is the two championship fights a year crap and rematch clauses.

If Joe Louis had of been so inactive, or even Ali, I think they might not have been so strong as champions if their chalengers had such an edge over them on ring activity.

Like a lot of things about Liston nobody knows for sure about anything with him other than on film he always looked terrific winning.

 

I thought about this earlier - how many outstanding challengers have there ever been? Liston, as you said, fits the bill - perhaps better than anyone else.

Actually it's quite rare that a fighter has blown through much of the main competition before becoming champion.

 

Overrated on this site...was not mentally tough...met him as a kid in late '64 training for his...ahem,..."fight" with Ali in Maine in May 1965.

 

Gerry Cooney and Michael Grant were also outstanding contenders.

 

Cooney had beaten big names in Norton and Young, but were any of them ranked at the time? Who had Michael Grant beaten?

 

Yes he was. Others on here have already slated the Patterson wins, but nobody outclassed and destroyed Patterson so quickly as Sonny did. Patterson gave Ali a hell of a fight in their rematch as you say, yet Sonny toyed with him twice.

Liston's career was ruined by the Ali fights for sure; I still don't know what happened in those fights, though! Did Liston just meet a future great fighter who blossomed that night? Were the fights fixed? I've read loads of stuff on the fights, but after all these years I don't know if we'll ever get to the truth.

I think Liston belongs with the greats and I couldn't back anyone with confidence against him in his prime. Even fighters I really like such as Louis and Frazier would have to get past that jab and left hook, and I rate Liston on a par with Foreman in terms of power.

Ali rated Liston very highly and so did Dundee, for what that's worth.

 

I don't KNOW what happened in those fights, but I can make an educated guess.

Liston went into the first fight with a bad shoulder. He had unsuccessfully tried to postpone the fight. He took Clay too lightly and thought he could dispose of him in a couple of rounds so he went ahead.
The shoulder condition was aggravated during the fight until his left arm was useless. He quit because he couldn't carry on.
Eight doctors who had examined a post-fight Liston submitted sword affidavits to the Miami Beach Athletic Commission, that the shoulder condition rendered Liston unable to defend himself.
Anyone who could have lasted 6 or 7 rounds with Liston that night would have won the fight.

Liston took a dive in the second fight. We'll probably never know the exact reason. He was either under Mob pressure for a gambling coup or he feared the death threats he had received from the Black Muslims.

 

I disagree. Cooney fought a past prime Jimmy Youngm a 39 year old Ron Lyle and a 37 year old Ken Norton. In addition he was highly inactive due to injury. That is not an outstanding contender other than in hype.

Grant's big wins were Izon ( a fringe guy ) , Savarese ( limited ) and Golota who had him on the floor twice until he did his usual self destruct .. Grant proved to be in completely over his head by the way Lewis destroyed him. The man did not even know how to clinch when hurt.