In his time John L Sullivan PRIME could’ve beat anyone on the planet in fair combat

I welcome debate, especially from a classy individual like your self. But every word I wrote can be viewed as true, especially the results. You can list excuses for Sullivan sure, but what about his opponents excuses?

Having great power means you force guys out to the point where they can't get up. Or an opponent doesn't want to. Sullivan failed to do both soon enough in my opinion which is why bouts lasted the distance or in the case of Mitchell and Kilrain 39, and 75 rounds! He did not win the Cardiff fight he should have lost it.

 

Under the rules that he fought, Sullivan was without doubt the best in the world. And his recognition in the times he fought was universal and undisputed.

The police gazette did not like him because Sullivan preferred a gloved Queensbury version of the Older rules. It meant Sullivan could fight more often, almost every night, touring the country challenging the toughest men in each town.

Even so, he still beat everyone under LPR rules that the police gazette ever recognised within the few LPR rules bouts he had.

Altogether, John L only fought a handful of LPR fights to the finish but he fought hundreds of times with gloves in hybrid marquis/LPR rules on tour in prize fights. Offering anyone $1,000 to last 4 rounds with him in 1884.

He darn near exhausted the world for opponents too. He was available to fight almost every night of his travelling tours. And he beat everyone out of sight.

It seems he was faster and stronger than anything anyone had seen before. Fast starting. Hit incredibly hard with either hand.

one report of him flattening a tall big man James Laing who had a 2,000 strong following read :

“if there is another man on earth who is his equal, certain it is this man is not publicly known. The force with which he delivers a blow is simply appalling to ordinary people”

 

How many LPR fights in the history of the sport ended quickly?

The answer is that it was virtually unknown.

Having a broken arm could be viewed as an excuse for a sub par performance, but it is about as strong an excuse as you can get.

 

I say a lot ended sooner that 39 rounds or 75 rounds.

Having a bad arm is a reason for losing or news drawing for sure, but the reason for it matters. In this case Sullivan hurt it when he missed a punch. That was due to Cardiff skill! And they say Cardiff deserved the decision. Cardiff was known quality who ring record reads 24-6-8. He was as tall as Sullivan and he was in the ring with guys that were very good ( Jackson, Godfrery and Killen ) that would rate as John L Sullivan's top 5 wins! If I look at the known quality Sullivan fought his results were mixed. Sullivan was 28 for this fight. Maybe his best gloved opponent besides Corbett.

Do you have any information on the fight?

 

Of course, a lot of them ended more quickly than the number of rounds suggests, because the round was over as soon as a man was knocked down. Sullivan v Paddy Ryan, for instance, lasted 9 rounds but only took 11 minutes.

 

The number of rounds in not a good indicator of the length of an LPR fight, because the rounds were not of a fixed length.

The rounds ended when a fighter either got dropped, thrown to the ground or took a knee, and then you had 30-38 seconds to reach scratch.

If a fighter exploited this rule to draw out the fight, as Mitchell and Killrain clearly did, then it was almost impossible to end the fight quickly.

Sullivan did not hurt his arm against Cardiff, he broke it.

This is very well documented by multiple primary sources.

If you don't make an allowance for this, then it is hard to see how you could ever make an allowance for any circumstance in a fight.

I don't see how you can conclude that Cardiff deserved the decision, with no film of the fight, but let's say that he had got the decision.

It would have been one of the biggest flukes in boxing history, and a largely meaningless victory for Cardiff.

The fact that Cardiff was unable to defeat Sullivan even after he broke his arm, merely underlines the vast gulf in quality between them.

It is hard to say what Sullivan's top five wins would be, because of he paucity of records of the era, and it would depend whether you meant best opponents or best results.

 

I allow for the excuses that he didn't due well but he missed Cardiff too and hurt his arm that way. Color Sullivan lucky he did not lose...the papers thought that Sullivan did lose the fight! Cardiff was a good opponent and not the typically small fry special for Sullivan with a scant known record.

So I do make allowed for it and I did post quotes on the fight. How bad Sullivan broke his arm, I don't know if its the radius bone or the Ulna.

Looking at his known records we can judge Sullivan. The Kilrian match which too a long while for Sullivan to win was 2 hours and 16 minuets long! Not a shot fight. Don't make it sound like it was a quick event.

 

The only evidence we have of how Sullivan broke his arm, is Sullivan's own testimony.

He said that his forearm struck Cardiff's forehead in the first round.

If that is true then it was a freak accident, and if Cardiff fought Sullivan 100 times, that is likely the best he would do.

Well some of the papers did think that Cardiff did the better work, but they all agreed that he fought very timidly, and few blows of any significance were landed by either man.

Given the conventions of the day, such a fight was very likely to result in a draw.

The answer to that is pretty damn badly.

It later had to be medically broken and reset, and they don't do that unless it is a train wreck.

I didn't claim that it was a quick affair, I said that the number of rounds doesn't mean a lot.

I must stress again, that very few LPR fights have ended quickly, and Kilrain extensively used spoiling tactics, such as taking a knee to get out of trouble.

One of the very few exceptions interestingly is Ryan Sullivan.

 

Sullivan was an immensely talented physical specimen, a fact attested to by many of his contemporaries. His power and speed were unprecedented for the fight set. I am not a scholar of the development of jujutsu but perhaps some top level practitioners at that time could have defused his attack, perhaps not. I do know jujutsu developed a lot in the 20th c. Not sure how many practitioners of the more striking-based arts could have handled him with his aggression, wrestling skills and strength atop his own striking talents.

 

How may times did Kirain take a break and did Sullivan? There was plenty of rest time between rounds

In LPR rules there is 1 minute rounds with 50 seconds break in between. Not three minutes like the standard queenberry.

 

Is this the same guy who questions most that Queesberry old timers did? Just checking. His power's upper range is untested for the most part vs durable men and men over 175 pounds in general and his athletic feats lack press reporting on them. Based on photos he doesn't look super athletic. What stories can you share?

 

No.

Under LPR a round continued until a knockdown or a throw occurred, or a fighter took a knee.

A round could last a few seconds, or it could last half an hour.

When a round ended, a fighter had 30-38 seconds to come up to scratch, depending on the jurisdiction.

If a fighter was in trouble, then could go down on a knee, and they got 30-38 seconds to recuperate.

His seconds could literally carry him to his corner if he was out cold, and drag him up to the scratch line, and the fight would continue.

The fight ended when one fighter couldn't come to the scratch line, or when a draw was agreed between the fighters, as happened in Sullivan Mitchell.

Under Queensbury rules a draw implies a fairly even fight, if it is appropriately rendered.

Under LPR a draw could be the conclusion of a very one sided fight, where neither fighter was able to put the other away.

For that reason it was sort of possible to establish your superiority over an opponent in a draw.

 

If there was someone out there who could have beaten Sullivan in his prime, you would think that Richard K. Fox would have found him.

 

Yeah and his name was Frank Slavin or Peter Jackson. Others would have liked a go at Silvan before 1892 and he lost to Corbett and did not fight again..

 

They might have been able to beat Sullivan, but so what if they had?

It would just have been a changing of the guard fight, like when Corbett beat him.