In Mythical Matchups Involving Pre-1960s Guys, You Cannot Just Make Them Bigger.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Haggis McJackass, Mar 19, 2011.


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  1. Haggis McJackass

    Haggis McJackass Semi-neutralist Overseer Full Member

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    When discussing Lennox Lewis vs Jack Dempsey, you can't say with a straight face "and Dempsey would be 20 pounds heavier and a lot stronger today" and then factor that in to your analysis.

    Because when you do that, you're not dealing with the man as he was, you are dealing with a non-existant fighter that you want him to be.

    Which means you might as well be discussing Lennox Lewis vs Conan the Barbarian, for all the relevance that the actual real Jack Dempsey has to the argument.

    :bart

    :hat
     
    Haggis McJackass, Mar 19, 2011
    Haggis McJackass, Mar 19, 2011
    #1
  2. albinored

    albinored Active Member Full Member

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    ...haggis has it nailed so acutely with this post i don't see any possible disagreement with him.:good
     
    albinored, Mar 19, 2011
    albinored, Mar 19, 2011
    #2
  3. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    It isnt a bad point.
     
    Boilermaker, Mar 20, 2011
    Boilermaker, Mar 20, 2011
    #3
  4. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    In fact , the smaller guys would have remained about the same as they were in terms of weight classes because despite they may have been a bit bigger , weight cutting and dieting improved as well.
     
    frankenfrank, Mar 20, 2011
    frankenfrank, Mar 20, 2011
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  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    If someone wants to talk about a heavyweight who might be bigger were he training in 1990 instead of 1890, I don't find that more ridiculous than someone worrying about who would win between a fighter who fought in 1890 and one who fought in 2003.

    It's an unknown though, because when you slap 20lbs of muscle on a guy you just don't know what the outcome is going to be in terms of mobility, speed etc. The same guys always want to assume that this magical 20lbs doesn't do their fighter any harm, only helps them.

    Frankly, I think a 210lb Dempsey would be a disaster, but i'm no more right or wrong than the guys who think the opposite because you just don't know.
     
    McGrain, Mar 20, 2011
    McGrain, Mar 20, 2011
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  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Much more significant IMO. You'd be able to squash a guy like Greb into 147 in his prime today if you wanted to, I bet. Far from having to fight at 175, Burley could maintain at 140 for most of his career, perhaps. Imagine a prime Sam Langford fighting at 160?
     
    McGrain, Mar 20, 2011
    McGrain, Mar 20, 2011
    #6
  7. Haggis McJackass

    Haggis McJackass Semi-neutralist Overseer Full Member

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    Exactly. Put 20 pounds of muscle on Dempsey and he doesn't throw those fast, jumping 8 punch wide combinations any more. Which means his style changes. Which means he isn't Jack Dempsey any more.

    The fact of the matter is that you just can't take a fighter, claim to put him in a mythical matchup, and then just flat out make **** up to give him a better case.

    I could put Wlad in with a prime Joe Louis in Louis' day and say that Wlad was now used to training with smaller gloves his whole life and so he was tougher and could absorb punches easier. So his mediocre chin is now a good chin and all of a sudden he is essentially invincible. Well guess what, that's bull****. :good

    :hat
     
    Haggis McJackass, Mar 20, 2011
    Haggis McJackass, Mar 20, 2011
    #7
  8. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    'Fitz at featherweight could be an amazingly scary proposition.
     
    Boilermaker, Mar 20, 2011
    Boilermaker, Mar 20, 2011
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  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    :lol:

    That would get boxing banned, no doubt.
     
    McGrain, Mar 20, 2011
    McGrain, Mar 20, 2011
    #9
  10. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I quite agree with this.
    This is why I know for a fact that Marciano was a lightheavyweight , but these forums will not accept it at least in the near future . He was outweighed by Archie Moore and Jersey Joe .
    This is why it is easier for me to imagine him getting bombed out by guys like Jameel McCline , Ray Austin , Michael Grant , Lance Whitaker (whom also had fast hands in fact) and their likes than vice versa , despite being P4P better than them , it is a mismatch for him.
    This is the difference between P4P and H2H .
    This is also why I can imagine the so called "the gratest" losing to the Klitschkos and Lewis .
     
    frankenfrank, Mar 20, 2011
    frankenfrank, Mar 20, 2011
    #10
  11. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Except it could not happen. He wasn't that light.
     
    frankenfrank, Mar 20, 2011
    frankenfrank, Mar 20, 2011
    #11
  12. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    He was at one point a lightweight and if he weightdrained and had the 24 hours weigh in, he could have got down to feather, couldnt he?
     
    Boilermaker, Mar 20, 2011
    Boilermaker, Mar 20, 2011
    #12
  13. bodhi

    bodhi Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    True.
     
    bodhi, Mar 20, 2011
    bodhi, Mar 20, 2011
    #13
  14. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Contary to Classic popular belief fighters have looked to bulk up and put on mass for years, Johnson did, Patterson did, and Dempsey went from a borderline LHW to a 190lber, they just generally weren't as good at it then as now and it was harder.
     
    PowerPuncher, Mar 20, 2011
    PowerPuncher, Mar 20, 2011
    #14
  15. Meast

    Meast New Member Full Member

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    That's why 90% of fantasy match up's really don't interest me.
     
    Meast, Mar 20, 2011
    Meast, Mar 20, 2011
    #15
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