In the ATG sense, who is better? Duran or Leonard?

Pretty good. I'm on vacation and spending my time giving hell to these young wanna bees

 

DTLA is booming. way more now than 5 years ago with future developments Oceanwide, Grand and Budocan on the way, not to mention all our new stadiums. Even I sometimes get jealous and I LIVE here!

 

I would go with Duran based on his dominance of the lightweight division in the 70's prior to beating Ray in Montreal. Once in his 30's he did have some tough losses but he also had truly amazing moments like his wins over Moore and Barkley and he gave Haglar one hell of a fight years before Ray beat Haglar.

Don't get me wrong, Ray is one hell of fighter as well and not far behind Duran on my all time list.

 

I forgot to take the Hagler fight into consideration

by Duran going 15 without getting knocked off his feet with a prime Hagler, that actually elevates him

too bad about what happened in his next fight

 

You mean Hagler? That’s the only real basis for that claim because he fought Benitez, Duran and Hearns at their peaks.

Sure, he sought an immediate rematch with Duran as he and Mike Trainer realised Duran would have to make weight in a shorter time but if he didn’t seek an immediate rematch he would have been accused of avoiding him.

 

I’d say Duran is higher than Leonard. I have Duran top 10 and Leonard top 20 on my list.

 

I'd be about the same. Leonard has a much shorter career but who in history has a better top 4 wins than Benitez, Duran, Hearns and Hagler? That's got to get one some serious mileage. Duran has so much as well with his long term trail of destruction at lightweight then the win over Leonard before becoming inconsistent at the higher weights while still racking up some very notable results.

 

Duran

 

sounds about right to me

 

Duran.

 

Leonard by 2 places

 

This is a huge question for me. I give Duran the edge, but it's soooo close.

Duran beating a hot-**** Leonard has a significant portion to do with my decision. Had Ray beaten HoS I would have picked him.

Leonard at the time of fighting Duran was a borderline boxing miracle whom rivalled even the Greatest ATG, Robinson. Duran's beating such a seemingly unbeatable fighter was near up there with FOTC imo.

Not to mention the incredible force that was Duran at lightweight.

 

Have gone back and forth on this one plenty of times.

In meaningful fights, it's 1-1 between them. I do think Duran gets let off a little too easily at times for some of his defeats or less than stellar moments. Fair enough if a fighter is simply washed up or falls foul of a judging injustice, but none of those apply to Duran for Leonard II, Benitez or Laing. He was certainly past his peak for Sims, but given the sheer chasm of class between them as fighters, I'm bound to say that's a pretty bad stain on his record, too. Obviously I can make allowances for Hagler and Hearns. Duran's win over Leonard - beating the undefeated, younger, faster, bigger man - is greater than Leonard's win in the rematch, particularly given the unsatisfactory ending. But if you're going to wax lyrical (rightly) about the awesomeness of Duran's victory and performance in Montreal and use it as evidence of an all-time great fighter reaching his career zenith, then there's no excuse or reason to airbrush him losing a return bout five months later. I also think some (not all) Duran fanatics kid themselves about the rematch when they talk as if there was nothing between them before Duran quit. Leonard was clearly outboxing him. And a fighter being unprofessional and blowing up in weight between fights leaving their preparation compromised doesn't cut it as an excuse, for me.

Leonard beat better fighters to establish his credentials for greatness at 147 than Duran had to at 135. Buchanan and De Jesus were outstanding fighters, don't get me wrong, but a rung below a smack-bang prime, undefeated Benitez and a smack-bang prime, undefeated Hearns, particularly when you look at what both Benitez and Hearns (especially) went on to do at higher weights after losing to Leonard. But again, that just rams home how special Duran's victory over Leonard in Montreal was.

Leonard's best wins generally are a tad more impressive than Duran's, and he certainly has less ignominious, unacceptable low points in his career. Duran has the single most significant win of their rivalry (and probably either man's whole career) and obviously a lot more longevity and depth to his resume. Get past Leonard's four great wins (Benitez, Duran, Hearns and Hagler) and you're left with Green, Kalule, maybe Lalonde and not much else. Get past Duran's four greatest wins (Buchanan, De Jesus, Leonard and for argument's sake Barkley because of the circumstances) and you've still got Marcel, Kobayashi, Ishimatsu, Mamby, Palomino, Cuevas, Moore, Castro and maybe a couple of others I've forgotten.

Like I said, I've changed my mind on this a couple of times before and probably will do again, but today I think I'll go with Duran's greater longevity and quantity ahead of Leonard's quality. I think Leonard, at his absolute best, was the better all-round fighter, but Duran had the better career. I have used this stat a few times to emphasis Duran's achievements, so forgive me for repeating myself, but it's central to why I think I'd have to have him just a shade ahead of Leonard: the guy was beating a very talented future Featherweight champion in Marcel in 1970, aged 18 and weighing 128 lb, and a whole 27 years later, just two days shy of his 46th birthday, was beating a strong-as-an-ox former Middleweight titlist in Castro while weighing 168 lb. Let that sink in for a moment. Not to mention the array of world title holders he beat in his career spanned all the way from Featherweight to Light-Heavyweight.

Duran by a nose. Well, today at least.

 

I don't think anyone here needs to defend Duran or Leonard's greatness. Leonard losing to Duran was almost like if 60s Ali had lost to Liston imo (despite the odds in the latter fight).

All great fighters have embarrassments on their records. When you fight, eventually you are going to lose.

 

Top post, Chris.