In the Ring: Marvin Hart .. Real facts on Johnson fight

I read an article not so long ago, about one of the promoters, i think it might have been one of Johnsons or Jeffries promoters, who spoke pretty highly of Ferguson, apparently he was suggesting he was a lot better than is suggested with regards to natural talent, and i think that he was argued to have the better of Johnson in at least one fight (might have been one where he got dqd) although dont quote me on which one. I got the opinion that he was a bit of a George Godfrey type of enigma. If this is true, it might not be too unreasonable to expect that Ferguson might have had quite a few backers willing to place him against Jeffries.

 

But Janitor, Johnson had way too many losses, draws, and lack luster wins vs. lesser talent. Once Adam flushes out the primary reports ( some of which I have posted here before ) one has to ask himself, should a alleged top ten all time great have this much trouble vs. lesser competition???

Personally I could not see Ali, Holmes, Louis, Jeffries, Marciano, Dempsey, Liston, Foreman, Tyson, Bowe, Lewis, et al losing to the likes of Choynski, Griffin, Klondike, Hart, getting floored by middle in Ketchel, getting perhaps out boxed by another middle in O'Brien, being lucky to escape with a draw vs. Jim Battling Johnson, and looking just OK vs a group the other all time greats I mentioned would have KO'd to oblivion.

Then we have some alleged fixed fights for Johnson. Example Johnson's manager claims the Kaufman fight was fixed. When one considers how little Kaufman did, and how Johnson just did enough, then mixes in the sparring partner relationship between the two, it becomes a possibility.

Johnson's title opponents should rate among the weakest of all the great champions, and his flat out avoidance of the top talent when he was champion should be held against him. The offers to fight Langford, Jeanette, and Mcvey were there by multiple promoters to the tune of 30-100k! There were no matches with Gunboat Smith ( Who TKO'd Johnson in a 4 round exhibition match ) or Clark either. Any of these men in their primes would rate as Johnson's toughest title opponent prior to Willard.

 

Gunboat Smith did not TKO Johnson in an exhibition match. He put Johnson down in sparring. Big difference. That happens all the time.

 

Klompton,

While the match was not an official title fight, it was a 4 round affair. Here is a news paper article which says Johnson was down, and got up dazed to the point where his manager halted the action and cut the round short. Anytime a match is stopped prematurely by the corner, its a TKO.

Official fight. Maybe not? Did it happen in the ring? Absolutely.

Gunboat could hit some, and would have been Johnson's most dangerous live body had he had the opportunity for a title match. of Course Smith was not a typical " white hope " of the times. He could fight.

You can judge for yourself. Below is the newspaper article.

[url]http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9F0DEED61F31E733A25751C1A9669D946897D6CF[/url]

 

The only thing fixed about the Kaufman fight was Johnson allowed Kaufman to finish on his feet.

"Kaufman trained hard ,and tried his best , but was unable to hit the overweight, only modestly serious Johnson".
" Kaufman landed no more than half a dozen serious blows,and these only served to to stir Johnson into action.For every punch he landed he was forced to pay a dear price." E D Burrows San Francisco Bulletin.
" Jack Johnson had no trouble winning a NWS dec over Al Kaufman , this afternoon ,Johnson landed allmost at will,while Kaufman got in only two effective punches". Nevada State Journal.
Four months after this fight Kaufman ,fought O Brien, and gave him ,"a fearful beating".Nevada State Journal. Three months alter they met again and,Kaufman gave O Brien,"a bad licking".Pittsburgh Post.
This is the same O Brien you say beat Johnson, only three months before being hammered by Kaufman?
By the way Kaufman and Johnson , disliked each other intensely.
And ,when Kaufman was totally shutout by Johnson and carried the distance,he had allready beaten Jim Barry,Mike Shreck, and Jim Flynn by ko, and as I said ,would go on to thrash O Brien twice in a matter of months shortly afterwards.
Still trying to pin a tko on Johnson for being put through the ropes in a sparring match with Smith?
Would that be similar to the tko, Toxie Hall scored against Rocky Marciano when he dropped Rocky and the sparring was halted ?
How desperate are you?

 

I basically agree with a lot of what you are saying. I think Smith was a legit threat to Johnson and probably should have gotten a shot at the title. I was just pointing out that this happened during sparring for the Ketchel fight, not during an exhibition bout. It is worded somewhat ambiguously but it is meant to read that he was knocked down during a 4 round sparring bout. I have a first hand account of the actual event somewhere but upon looking for it to quote here I cant find it. The first hand accounts show it was a little less inocuous than what the wire report printed in the times plays it up to be. Johnson was basically knocked through the ropes and while being a bit dazed he was not really hurt or in danger. I'll keep looking for that account and if I can find it Ill quote it for you.

 

Gun Boat Smith, in a taped interview in 1972 said he put Johnson through the ropes in a spar.No tko . "In This Corner", by Pete Heller, easy to find.
You know what they say about ",if you repeat a lie often enough".

 

The San Francisco Call, which is not the ringside report I am looking for, stated that there was a lot of argument as to the legitimacy of the knockdown Johnson suffered. Johnson stated he slipped and was hit either while slipping or just after and was sent down, to which his manager agreed (which one would expect), some spectators felt the same way, other swore it was a legit knockdown. The only mention of the sparring being stopped and Johnson being badly dazed comes from wire reports and as innaccurate as wire reports are one can imagine these likely originated with parties interested in Gunboat Smith's future. Johnson's manager stated that such reports were the works of people trying to gain a reputation on Johnson's back.

 

Smith put Johnson through the ropes in October 1909, he had beaten no one of note ,and would be kod twice in 1910,
byJim Barry 14-7-3
and Joe Willis 5-5-2.
He would lose dec's to Barry and Charley Miller [8-5-2] in 1911, and would not beat a heavyweight of any real stature until December 1912.
.By the time Smith was a contender Johnson was a fugitive from the States and fighting in Europe .
Smith had a purple patch from Dec 1912,till July 1914 ,20months .

 

Thank you for posting this.
I have read Smith's account of it ,which makes no mention of a TKO ,, flooring Johnson , or the sparring being stopped, but even if it had, it would mean zilch ,as far as I am concerned, it was not a fight.
Those with an agenda to denigrate Johnson will continually clutch at straws.

 

"Though Jack Johnson is undoubtedly one of the cleverest defensive fighters the game has ever known, he can be hit by a rough, strong fellow who keeps crowding in. That was demonstrated yesterday at Johnson's training camp when Gunboat Smith landed an overhand chop on the point of the chin of the champion and stretched him flat on his back.
The husky sailor of the cruiser Pennsylvania sent over that punch when breaking out of a clinch and he caught big Jack soundly snoring. He nearly put him into another kind of sleep and when Jack got up he was shaky in his legs. The champion was so dazed that his manager cut short the round or the sailor might have put him away for keeps.
Johnson has had so much trouble getting sparring partners that it was announced that he would meet all comers and that's how the lad from the deep blue sea happened to wade into the spotlight."

"Responding to Champion Jack Johnson's offer to meet all comers in lieu of his usual sparring partners, "Gunboat" Smith, a seaman from one of the United States cruisers anchored in this harbor, appeared yesterday at the champion's training quarters and scored a clean knockdown in his four-round bout with the big negro."

 

What are the papers these quotes come from?