In the Ring: Marvin Hart .. Real facts on Johnson fight

Seattle Daily Times and a wire in Los Angeles Herald.

 

these are the wire reports im talking about. we need more first person accounts. in that era wire reports could be filed by anyone.

 

The fact that Johnson was using the 6 ' 2" Smith ,in preparation for his fight with 5' 9" Ketchel may imply that there was a shortage of sparring partners.
Thje fact that Smith himself did not claim to have knocked Johnson down, but, "through the ropes", leads me to doubt the rest of the piece.

 

The knockdown happened. There are quite a few reports here. Not only mine, but Senya13's. Until we read a detailed report that says otherwise, we have some sources to go by. This is hardly clutching at straws.

You only take a fighters word when it suits you. We have been over this before. For example Johnson himself says Langford floored him. Do you believe it? Sparring partners such as Gunboat Smith are often kind to the hand that feed them in quotes.

 

Johnson and Kaufman disliked each other intensely, Kaufman challenged Johnson for a title shot, and was handled like a baby,as ALL reports show,this was in Sept 1910.Johnson did not spar with Kaufman, until July 1910 when they had ONE exhibition. He was in camp for the Ketchel fight but was not used.
Johnson gave an exhibition with Frank Moran in April 1909, he defended his title against Moran in June 1914 was that fixed?

Jeff Clark ? He debuted in 1908 and was kod by Dixie Kid a welterweight , he was also lost a nws to Kid that year.
In 1908 Johnson was the world Champ.

In 1909 Clark beat the aged and alcoholic Maher but was floored in the first round and barely survived it.

He was again beaten twice by Welter Dixie Kid.
Clark ,also lost a NWS to Jack Reed that year .
Reed was 1-2-0

In 1910 Clark stepped up the opposition he met Sam Langford and was crushed in 2rds ,floored 3 times in the first and twice in the second.

1911.Clark took on Middleweight Frank Mantell and lost the NWS. Clark did manage to beat George Kid Cotton who was 3-2-0.
Cotton was a sparring partner for Johnson.

1912 Clark lost to Harry Wuest 5-10, and drew with Kid Cotton.

1913 Clark drew with Jack Twin Sullivan a middleweight and drew with old favourite Cotton.
1914 Clark had his best win a dec over Langford.
1915 Clark drew with Roughhouse Ware 1-4-4
later in the year . Clark then drew with Battling Jim Johnson, whom you called a journeyman. Jim had drawn with 36 years old Jack Johnson ,2 years previously but the champion had a broken arm.

Clark fought Battling Jim again in 1917 and was stopped in 8rds ." Clark was down in the 8th and suffered a bad battering"

By far his best win was in 1914 when he managed to beat Langford on points , he also got a NWS over Langford in 1918 , but Johnson was no longer champion then.


Clark draws with Johnson's sparring partner twice ,draws with Rough House Ware 1-4-4

Loses to Harry Wuest 5-10

Loses to Jack Reed1-2-0

Is kod by a Welterweight

Kod by a journeyman[your words]

Yet would be Johnson's toughest challenge, prior to Willard?


When do you think Clark should have fought Johnson?
In 1914 ? Johnson was 36 , in Paris, and Buenos Aires, on the run.

Are you on medication?

 

Clark would have been a better option that Jim Battling Johnson or Flynn. I see you went out of your way to list all his losses, while ignoring most of his best results. Typical.

1910, Clark beat Jim Battling Johnson, who of course beat on Johnson in their 1913 title match only to robbed with a draw.

1910, Clark drew with a prime Joe Jeanette

1911, Clark beat Luther McCarty a fighter some viewed as the best white hope of the times. Huge win.

1911, beat Levinsky

1912, news decision over Joe Jeanette

1914, beat Sam Langford

1915, Beat Kid Norfolk.


Now, the above collections of wins is FAR better than Johnson's title opponents. Clark is an under rated fighter. He was very quick, smooth, mobile, and could box. If Jack Johnson had trouble with an older Jack O'Brien, he might very well lose or draw vs Clark.

I think Clark did enough to earn a title shot right after drew with Jeanette in 1910, and beat McCarthy in 1911. So 1911-1915 would be fine for a title shot.

I would say Clark would be 4th or 5th in line of those Johnson avoided as champion. Behind Langford, McVey, Jeanette, and about even with Smith. However there is no doubt Clark was better than Flynn, Jim " battling" Johnson, and Moran. Johnson took 1911 off.

I wonder if the other posters after reading this agree that Clark would have been a fine title opponent for Johnson.

 

I actually listed his best wins twice
Lets put the wins you listed in perspective.

Clark beat Battling Jim in 1910 Johnson was in his 3rd fight!

Clark beat Levinsky in 1911 .Levinsky was in his 8th fight ,his record was 7-1-0 !

Clark beat Luther McCarty in 1911 McCarty was in his 7th fight 6-0-1!

"huge win" BULL**** !
At this time, McCarty's opponents ,all 7 of them, had records as follows
3-3-0
0-3-0
0-7-0
0-1-1
0-0-1[same guy]
5-37-5 Joe ****ing Grim!, a lightweight, and it was a draw!
1-2-0
The four wins you listed were over novices.NB Clark had 51 fights under his belt when he decisioned 7 fight McCarty.

1913 Clark beat Kid Norfolk. Norfolk was 2-1-0

I listed Clarks best wins, [ the two over fat, half blind, 35 year old Langford ].

Clark drew with Battling Johnson in 1915 Clark was a prime 29 .
Clark was kod by Johnson in 1917 he was 31 years old.


Jack Johnson drew with Battling Jim in 1915, handicapped by a broken left arm ,Jack was 36 years old.There is no factual basis to suggest Jim Johnson was robbed in this fight.

Joe Jeanette.? A year after Clark got a NWS over him, [ 1913]They fought again the fight was stopped, because Jeanette was dominating Clark without making any attempt to finish him. Ruled a non contest, Jeanette was carrying him.
I too ,hope other posters look at this exchange ,then they can put you in perspective ,as well as Jeff Clark

 

At the end of the day what importance should we attach to it anyway?

Toxie Hall knocked Marciano down in sparring, and the session was called off.
Does that mean Hall would be alive contender for Rocky's title ?
Greg Page [then washed up ] ,dropped Tyson ,should he have got a title shot?
It is what it is , at least , until an agenda driven Mendoza ,hypes it into something it patently was not.

 

Consider this, Clark only managed to beat a 3 fight novice Jim Johnson,
drew with him later, and was stopped by him .Clark was in his prime for these fights.

Consider that Jim Johnson, drew with Jeanette 3 times.

Consider that Jim Johnson beat Jeanette in 1915, in which year Jeanette had 11 fights including bouts with Mcvey , [a month before Johnson],a stoppage of Pelkey,a ko of Tate,and wins over Langford and John Lester Johnson.Battling Jim was the only one to defeat him that year.

Consider that Jim Johnson, drew with Langford 3 times..

Consider that Jim Johnson kod Bill Tate in 2rds,and Black Bill in 7 ,and beat Tom Cowler,and Tony Ross.
Consider that Jim Johnson beat George Kid Cotton in only his 4th fight, the same Cotton who drew with Clark twice ,once in only his 6th fight.

Consider that Jim Johnson drew with Jack Johnson.
Consider that Jim Johnson drew with, Sam McVey.

There is EVERY REASON TO BELEIVE ,that Jim Johnson was as good as Jeff Clark.

 

This is incorrect. You are going by Boxrec here which has a woefully incomplete record for Norfolk. He had been fighting since 1910 at least and between that time surely amassed a lot more than three fights. At the very least I have a ton of fights from Panama that dont appear on his record all of which take place prior to his bout with Clark. When he lost to Clark he was one of the hottest fighters in Panama, being considered the Panamanian HW champion and even ran his own high class boxing gym called the Baltimore Athletic Club. By the time he fought Clark he was a very well established fighter.

 

If you have that information I will concede the point .
It should be noted that Norfolk beat Clark ,the other 5 times they met.

That still leaves McCarty,Levinsky,and Jim Johnson as novices.
I am not saying Clark was a bad fighter, he obviously was not ,but to state he would have been Johnson's best opponent, prior to Willard is very sweeping.
Clark drew with middleweights and lost to welters ,it is not a given he would have beaten Stanley Ketchel ,whom Johnson carried.

 

Im not disagreeing i simply wanted to point out that Norfolk's record extends back much further than what Boxrec shows.