In the Ring With Jack Dempsey - Part I: The Making of a Champion

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by apollack, Sep 16, 2020.



  1. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Dempsey's hands were wrapped by Jimmy Deforest in the presence of Willard's chief second so that eliminates that theory of doctored wraps. If Dempsey carried an object in his hand during the fight where is it? Why didnt Willard ever produce it to the press ? After the fight Willard was in no shape to go looking for bolts.
    There is a photo out there of an object on the canvas,close inspection reveals it to be a cigar butt.
    It 's been postulated that Dempsey concealed a rail- spike in his glove , these are a good 5 inches long and it would not be possible to hide in with a clenched gloved fist.
    Dempsey did not bet on himself Kearns placed the bet and its believed, [Adam will clear this up,]that it was done without Dempsey's knowledge.
    As to the damage Willard sustained,Hype Igoe was ringside for this fight as well as the Jeffries v Fitz second fight,he said Jeffries received a bigger beating, and took more punishment than Willard did.
    Produce one verified claim from any observer in which they say metal can be seen falling out of Dempsey's glove .
     
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  2. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    I don't care if anyone saw his hands wrapped. Did he put something in his gloves afterward? Who says the rail spike has to be 5" long. What it it were shorter?

    Adam can not prove anything. How can he say Dempsey wasn't aware of the bet of a first round KO.

    Max Kellerman who is one of the top media people on boxing mentioned some claim to see metal falling out of Dempsey's glove!

    Lots of smoke here. Why did Demspey run out of the ring after round one? Why? Very odd. He should be celebrating big time.

    Willard suffered tremendous damage. I never heard worse before or since. On Igoe, the term " Hype "came from his name.

    Willard did find a bolt of metal in the ring, and kept it his entire life. If Adam doesn't cover that in the book, he's not showing all sides.

    In the January 13, 1964, issue of SI, Jack Kearns, long on the outs with Dempsey, “confessed” that he had used Plaster of Paris on the handwraps Dempsey wore for the Willard fight. I think this is misdirection, it wasn't the plaster of parries, it was something else. Yet his manager said it.

    Jess Willard himself expressed concern about Dempsey and his handwrapping methods. “I have been up against pretty rough practice in the matter of hand wrappings which really amounted to armor over the knuckles,” Willard said in newswire article just days before his butchering in Toledo. “Some fellows have wound adhesive tape so thickly that the fist felt like iron through the glove. There have been cases where seconds have provided themselves with two cans, one containing talcum powder, the other plaster Paris. After the bandages on the hands of their men were adjusted they would dust the lint and then spray it with water. The plaster of Paris would set like rock and the unfortunate fellow who went up against that glove would feel as though a hammer hit every time a punch found its mark.”

    Roger Khan, author of A Flame of Pure Fire: Jack Dempsey and the Roaring 20s, when asked by Ferdie Pacheco about the possibility of Dempsey cheating had this to say: “I would rather think it was not an iron spike, but we have to remember where it was in the early part of the century that Dempsey came from: a very, very tough America.

    Parts taken from:

    [url]https://thisbrutalglory.com/2018/07/04/hard-times-the-mystery-of-the-jack-dempsey-jess-willard-fight/[/url]
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  3. WAR01

    WAR01 In the 7.2% Full Member

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    “Greatest”?
     
  4. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Adam can prove it if he can unearth primary sourced quotes, which his is a master at doing.
    Its commonly supposed Dempsey was ignorant of the bet until just before he entered the ring I ,and no doubt others are hoping Adam can confirm this one way or another.
    Kellerman is a link man I dont take him seriously, he certainly is no historian.I give him no more credence than the better posters on here and usually less! The dusting with plaster of paris does not work as SI proved when they applied it to Cleveland Williams wraps and had him punch the heavy bag, it just disintegrated.
    As I have already stated Kearns did not wrap Dempsey's hands Deforrest did ,and Dempsey gloved up in the ring. Kearns was in Willards dressing room watching his hands be wrapped while Walter Monahan, from Willard's corner was watching Dempsey's being wrapped by Deforrest .
    In Nat Fleischers'50 Years At Ringside . He stated he was in Dempsey's dressing room when Deforrest wrapped Dempsey's hands ,and saw nothing unusual or illegal occur .

    This is once again
    FAKE NEWS
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  5. Cecil

    Cecil Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I would imagine if a fighter somehow hid a metal spike in the gloves of the day, they would do as much harm to the fighters hand as it would to his opponents face.
     
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  6. Rico Spadafora

    Rico Spadafora Master of Chins Full Member

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    If we are relying on Max Kellerman for anything then that makes it not very credible. I happen to think Dempsey more than likely had a 75" reach. Either way the guy could fight and his style was a nightmare for the time.
     
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  7. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Fake news would not be reporting both sides. He can write the book as he chooses but if he fails to mentioned Willards thoughts and Dempsey's manner himself admiring foul play, then its not telling both sides of the story. Even Roger Khan

    Again I don't think the dressing room means jack. A piece of metal could have been put in the glove after the hands were wrapped.

    Joe Benjamin, lightweight hellraiser and one of Dempsey’s best friends, also once admitted to using a lead slug in the ring. And Jimmy DeForest, who trained Dempsey, also trained Kid McCoy, whose legendary “Corkscrew Punch” may have been nothing more than doctored wraps. Hmmmmm

    Roger Khan, author of A Flame of Pure Fire: Jack Dempsey and the Roaring 20s, when asked by Ferdie Pacheco about the possibility of Dempsey cheating had this to say: “I would rather think it was not an iron spike, but we have to remember where it was in the early part of the century that Dempsey came from: a very, very tough America. When he was traveling in boxcars, he had to fight for his life against homosexual ****. His first wife was a prostitute, and he was her pimp. He was accused of many things, including being a professional ****** of virgins who would then be sent to brothels. Some of this is undoubtedly so. It was a very tough America and Dempsey did what he had to do to win.”

    What Khan wrote if true is utterly disgusting and keep in mind he's a Demspey fan boy. Dempsey beat on his wife too.
     
  8. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Not on the outside of the glove pinned between the thumb.
     
  9. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Kellerman is reporting what he heard. The 77" reach for Dempsey goes against what can be seen today. 73" is more likely.
     
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Dempsey was never a pimp.He was never accused of raping anyone that was some BS on here with no primary sources ,the sort of **** you like to indulge in. Everybody knows you hate Dempsey almost as much as the 1st Black heavyweight champion,if you think these fairy tales are true ,why don't you order the book as I and others have, then you'll have all the ammunition you need to further **** on his reputation.
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Kellerman is a TV linkman ,a nobody in the pugilistic scheme of things,"reporting what he heard," that says it all!
    How about reporting what you can prove to be true? I put him with Bert Sugar and probably a little below him!
     
  12. Cecil

    Cecil Boxing Addict Full Member

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    That’s a big stretch.
     
  13. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    A fascinating article posted by Mendoza. I back up Mendoza on one point. Adam might be able to prove Dempsey knew about the bet, but I can't see how he could prove he didn't know, as how would anyone be able to know what Kearns and Dempsey did or didn't say in private conversation with each other? Kearns wrote that Dempsey "Didn't Know the Gloves were Loaded" which was the title of the SI piece. But this title makes one wonder if Kearns was as bitter as Dempsey claims. Why not drag Dempsey into the middle of the conspiracy rather than having him ignorant of it? If getting at Dempsey was the goal?

    Some other observations. Nat Fleischer? I find it odd that he is relating clear as can be 45 year old memories which put him at the center of everything. I have my doubts about how reliable his testimony is.

    The bet itself is incredibly suspicious. Betting a guy who has never been off his feet and about 60 lbs. heavier gets KO'd in the first round? It certainly smells of foul play possibly being afoot.

    One question which arises for me. Was the plaster of paris of the 1960's the exact same product as the plaster of paris of 1919. The formulas for many items change over the decades and with different manufacturers. I have no idea, but I would ask that question. If it did change, could this impact how it reacted on hand wrappings?

    Another question is how badly was Willard actually hurt? Nailing this down would help. Exaggerating injuries has long been part of boxing hype.

    Mendoza makes the good point that it is most strange that Dempsey left the ring so soon.
     
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  14. The Morlocks

    The Morlocks Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    This content is protected

    This content is protected
     
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  15. jdempsey85

    jdempsey85 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    It would be the one of the earliest executions caught on film if he had a spike
     
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