'In the Ring with Jack Johnson Part I: the Rise'

Just like everyone else Ive asked you multiple times to prove your claim that youve seen it and just like every other time youve been called out you fade away or make up an excuse.

 

Not if folks rewind and rewatch the KO moment. That would be the first part to go.

 

Adam does indeed give several accounts of the first Klondike Haines Johnson fight, none of them state that Johnson quit ,something that you constantly trumpet on here.
What they say is that after a good start in which he dropped Klondike in the 2nd rd the undertrained Johnson ran out of gas and clinched to avoid punches.,the fight being stopped in either the 5th or 6th rd.

The bout took place in May 1899.
Adam also states that Johnson weighed 168lbs in April 1900 when at the age of 22 he fought Jack McCormick. Ten months after the McCormick fight 22years old Johnson was kod by Choynski, Adam says it is reasonable to say both Johnson and Choynski weighed about 170lbs in this fight, something that I have been telling you for a couple of years now.

So a super midddleweight ,[or as you prefer supper middleweight ,]Choynski kod a super middleweight, Johnson.
I've no doubt you wil continue to repeat your," versions", but its nice to have the real story out there, and in print.

 

I haven't been able to resist dipping into different parts of this book ,going backwards and forwards.Just read the accounts of the Jeannette fights, so much detail and cross references. The work that has gone into this book is staggering.:good

 

I sent you a PM on the topics of films. You never replied. One thing is clear, your disbeleif and eagerness to discredit people who have films that you do not isn't winning you any favors.

 

Quick notes, the 4 reports Adam posted contradict each other. There is no definitive conclusion here. Adam gives an interpretation. Reports can miss out on key details.

Two other booking books said Johnson quit ( As he did later in his career ), and one goes into detail to the point where the promoter did not want Johnson to collect a dime!

PS: Did you read that Griffin got the better of Johnson in the third fight, in addition to cleanly beating him in their first match

PPS: Did you read Johnson's match with a faded Everett, a man who Jeffries blew away when Everett was good working condition now a draw

 

No contemporary sources state that Johnson quit against Klondike .That is a fact.
No primary source says Johnson quit .
Neither does famous referee George Siler who was ringside.

Several reports state that a fair verdict for the 1st Griffin fight would have been a draw.

Did you know that Griffin was outboxing and ahead , against the heavier stronger Jeffries in their first encounter until he was stopped?
The third Griffin /Johnson fight was a draw.

Johnson, scaling around 170lbs gave weight away .
Adam has painstakingly researched it and published the round by rounds reports.
Everett was 26 years old when he fought Johnson, and estimated to have weighed about 190lbs at the time, he had about 20lbs on Johnson.
The result was a draw, as given by the referee Jerry Mahoney
I don't believe anyone could have been more thorough in their research than Adam has been with this book ,the time, energy, and patience needed to harvest all these reports is immense .
Being that it is undeniably the benchmark for it's subject,I am flattered to get a credit at the back of the book.

Of course anything that does not paint Johnson in a bad light will never be accepted by you.

Your phobic need to character assassinate him has meant that any credibility you may have possessed has been irrevocably flushed down the toilet.
Though it is tedious reading your pidgin English , it is always a pleasure correcting your deliberately misleading and negative assertions. I await the next howler.

 

Mendoza says: Quick notes, the 4 reports Adam posted contradict each other. There is no definitive conclusion here. Adam gives an interpretation. Reports can miss out on key details.

Two other booking books said Johnson quit ( As he did later in his career ), and one goes into detail to the point where the promoter did not want Johnson to collect a dime!

PS: Did you read that Griffin got the better of Johnson in the third fight, in addition to cleanly beating him in their first match

PPS: Did you read Johnson's match with a faded Everett, a man who Jeffries blew away when Everett was good working condition now a draw

There are many ways to quit in a fight. And Johnson did in fact quit in his ring career.

How many reports say Johnson won? ZERO, correct. The official result was Griffin W, and Adam's book says Griffin was viewed as the better in the 3rd fight he was well.

Yes. Griffin's prime was the 1890's when that fight Happened, it was one of Jeffries very first fights. By the time Johnson fought Griffin, Griffin's best days were gone!

Dunce, Everett was also on the decline. Check his last few fights and you'll see.

As for Johnson being Ko'd by a super middle, being floored by another super middle, and out boxed by a third according to some primary reports, its all true Something tells me you have a hard time accepting the truth here, which is why you say oh, but he an estimated 170 pounds, there was a fix, and he did not train hard. HA!

 

Adam's book gives four different papers account of the 1st Klondike Johnson fight.
Three state the fight was stopped by the Police, the other says Klondike was "given the decision before the end of the 6th round.".
After reading up on all the available information ,and comparing the ringside reports,Adam says.


"Regardless,contrary to the erroneous belief of some,Johnson was not dropped or knocked out, nor did he quit.
Given what we later came to learn about Johnson's survival skills, it is likely that he would have lasted the full 6 rounds and lost a decision had the police not intervened."


Johnny Conners who put on the fight was pleased with Johnson's effort according to the
Daily Illinois State Register,and scheduled a fight with him and George Grant shortly afterwards.
Johnson had not trained for the Klondike bout, and had no second in his corner.

Johnson stated that he was a 154lbs middleweight for this fight.

As for Johnson quitting in fights ?

Johnson retired in between rounds in fights against.

Bob Lawson and Bill Hartwell, he was 48 and 50 years old.

I think Johnson's effort against the giant Willard in tropical heat, described by Willard as "hotter than hell," when he was 37 years old ,going 26 rds and being in front after 20rds ,dispels any bull**** about his courage.

Just getting into the ring for some of his fights after death threats,against red neck boxers and before racist audiences took a remarkable amount of bravery.

As a man Johnson had many flaws, [most men do,] lack of courage was never one of them.

His last wife was insensitively asked at his funeral," what it was that most attracted her to him ,?" She replied." I admired his courage , he wasnt afraid of anything."

Q.How old was Vitali Klitschko when he quit to Chris Byrd? A.28

Q.How old was Sam Langford when he retired between rounds against Fred Fulton? A. 35

Q. How old was Langford when he retired between rounds against Harry Wills? A.38.

Q. How old was Harry Wills when he deliberately fouled out against Jack Sharkey to save himself a beating? A.37.

The first Griffin fight was a win for Griffin but most felt Johnson deserved a draw, read the reports.

The third Griffin fight was a draw.

I've read the round by round summaries in Adam's book

Adam's book does not say Griffin deserved the verdict in the third fight read it for yourself.

After the third Johnson fight the 32 years old Griffin fought on for another 3 years, losing just one fight.

I have no problem accepting Johnson was kod by Choynski, who was a super middle ,as was Johnson himself at the time.

I have my doubts that the knockdown of Johnson by Ketchel was legit, film evidence suggests he was falling before the blow landed.

I'm not alone in this opinion ,it is shared by many who have viewed the footage carefully.
Including Klompton ,who has run and re -run it several times.

It is a matter of fact that Johnson was out partying until the early hours the night before the O Brien 6 rounder, its mentioned in several articles and books.

Here is a report from the Times Despatch, provided by McGrain.

KEPT NEGRO JUMPING DURING SIX ROUND DRAW: O'BRIEN PUT UP GAME FIGHT HAD JOHNSON TIRED AND ANXIOUS: JOHNSON HOOTED BY CROWD: SLOW ON HIS FEET AND NOT IN CONDITION - RESORTED TO ROUGH TACTICS.

"Johnson, the big coloured HW champion failed to win over Jack O'Brien the Philadelphia light-heavyweight in a six round bout. The fight was even, the consensus of opinion that the result would have been a draw were a decision permitted. O'Brien's fast footwork and superior blocking saved him from damage in several close mixes but three times he was forced to his knees by the negro's great strength and weight in the clinches.

It was a fast fight with Johnson doing most of the leading. Johnson was slow on his feet and appeared not to be in good condition...he repeatedly rushed [O'Brien] but seldom landed cleanly. A right hand counter in the fifth cut O'Brien's eye but that was the sum total of the damage done.

O'Brien was in and out in a flash stabbing Johnson in the face, but the blow was not heavy and had no other affect than to make the big black man grin and wave to the crowd, that cheered every time O'Brien landed and hooted the Johnson's rough work in the clinches."


Below an extract from the Philadelphia Evening Bulletin provided by Clay Moyle.


O’Brien Was Game
As was to be expected, O’Brien began to tire under the strain in the last two rounds, and it was only his natural headiness that enabled him to keep Johnson away. The champion was puffing and was not in the best of shape. (Next sentence missing a few words and say’s something about Johnson having done little work beforehand and being wilder than any champion should have been.) His


That's two contemporary ringside reoprts that comment on Johnson's lack of condition.

Verdict .A very clever, faster ,smaller boxer outspeeded,a bigger out of shape boxer over 6 rounds keeping out of danger for the most part to earn a consensus draw.

Being a short no decision bout the bigger man was in no danger of losing unless he was kod, and ,as his opponent was known to be a light hitter, that was most unlikely.
Consequently the champion did little work prpearing for the contest and was out drinking until the early hours the night before,[an established fact.]
Unprofessional? Yes. Fair on the public? No. Fact ? Yes.

We both know you won't provide any evidence to the contrary, neither will you stop repeating your lies
But be in no doubt , I won't stop exposing them and holding you up to ridicule.



Keep embarrassing yourself, it's what you do.

 

The reports contradicted each other. One report said Johnson looked huge, another says thin. HA, who is correct? One says stopped by the police, another says decision. Two other books says he quit, and bxking record books have it as a KO loss. There is no film, Adam's opinion is only an interpretation.

Tropical heat in April? Get out of here! The ref said he felt Johnson could have gotten up if he wanted to but opted to STAY DOWN. Johnson says it was a fix. He's full of it.

Yes, there were lots of Red Necks. Red Necks were British people who relocated to the Southern USA, and were not used to the heat. Hence their necks were red. So it was your nations ancestors that were the primary racists. Feel better now? Learn something? Just a hunch this truth will bother you a bit. I never read of one fight high level where a boxer was attacked in or out of the ring after the conclusion.

Only picking easy title shots, and avoiding the likes of Langford

This was due to injury. I do not think Vitali was familiar with the Western Press who at the time had factions waiting to blast him. Had the fight been for higher stakes at the end of his career maybe he presses on and risks further injury to the shoulder. Byrd's win over Vitali is like a Tennis star getting hurt up 2 sets to none, an leading in the third, but forced to retire due to injury.

For your sake hope I do decide to purchase the the book.

 

I have the book and the reports you do not ,yet you argue?
No report in it says Johnson quit , do you get that?

All say the fight was stopped by the police, do you get that?

It was stopped in the 5th round with one more to go.
Do you understand that?

Adam has dug up contemporary reports ,same day articles, giving ringside opinions,yet you want to dismiss them and accept books that were written years later just because they do not jive with your agenda? How ridiculous are you?
You are totally wrong about the origin of the term Redneck by the way , but then you usually are.
You giving lessons on racism is really funny.

By the way my ancestors come from Germany on my Father's side and Denmark on my Mother's.

Jess Willard's opinion of the heat and humidity cuts no ice with you ?

Should I be surprised?

Jack Welch the referee said if the fight had been over the 20rds distance he would have had no hesitation in awarding it to Johnson.

It is a matter of public record that Johnson's life was threatened before fights, before the Jeffries one someone took a shot at his training camp.

Vitali was not familiar with the western press? Why not, up to that point all his fights except one were in the West? Anyway, what difference does it make to whether you decide to quit or not?
He flat out quit in a fight with only three rounds to go in a fight he was winning against a much smaller light hitting man . You excuse that but disparage Johnson for retiring against two younger, bigger, stronger men when he was 48 and 50 years old.

I'm beginning to think you are not only bigoted to the point of borderline special needs, but mentally unhinged.

Please try to up the quality of your responses ,its getting like shooting fish in a barrel.

 

Some people are just so biased and so agenda driven that they will never accept the truth. It becomes more and more obvious that are willing to lie or convince themselves of an alternate reality in order maintain their position. Just sayin.

 

And you're dead right.:good

 

Just a quick post to say thanks for all the primary sourced reports that you have NOT posted to rebut my posts .

 

Your problem is ,you are not talking to," the right people".:nono

And I thought you were well connected.atsch