In todays area from 154-175 does anyone beat a prime Roy Jones jr?

Thats just what suits your agenda. Roy was favourite going in and only had one loss

You obviously do as here you are giving statistics in this very thread to suit your agenda. Too easy Loudon

Because silly, you compared 2 fighters previously at around 35 and 36 years of age to suit your agenda, so I told you where they were in their respective careers.
See, you dont even realise I use your own tactics against you and you go into meltdown.
Can you not see, that I have done exactly what you did and force you to copy suit with me lol

We can only surmise but yes I see it as a possibility

That was me copying the triangle theories you use but freak when someone else does them back.

I could see Ottke as a fine boxer using great conventional skills, causing Roy problems. Simple

Something I havent said

We can only surmise but I think outboxed him

Who knows? We know Ottke could turn it up when he needed to like how he stopped Mundine a boxer who I think modelled some of his style on Roy

Thats the scenario that I think could be likely.
I remember how so many sneered at all my against the grain predictions that have come in.
Lets see your pre fight predictions where you called for the underdog and I will show mine.
This is something you cant do lol

YEs at SMW. I also think Ward has a better SMW resume than Jones

Logic based on triangle theories which you cant take lol

Same as me saying all that but when he faced a faded Johnson he was stopped and Johnson when prime was beaten by Ottke. Exactly the same way of answering.
You are talking of different fighters

Oh dear, so now in your bias, it doesnt matter where Hopkins was in his career and we should forget to suit your agenda that Hopkins didnt win a world title in his next attempt after

Though I believe there are some that felt Tiberi had beaten him with one judge scoring it 117-111 and one judge had Jones beating Toney 117-110 so lets not get carried away Loudon with the bias

So you cant make a sensible answer as to why you rate him really lol. Just revert back to type and say it was impressive that Roy beat him in a round. That was at the 2nd time. If I look at it your way DM did it the first time in 4

Of course you can. You try it in a passive aggressive way especially when you cant take another view point

Triangle theories on display here now.

Not relevant to the fighters I mentioned at all fool

A MD means majority decision. Roy looked badly hurt in that fight. The win was debatable and was a MD. Wake up

Along with stats when it suits your agenda

Right? So nobody can use age as an excuse except you? Nobody can use triangle theories but you? Nobody can note where someone was in their career but you, but all to suit your agenda



I gave a list of fighters I felt could have beaten Roy and from that list we know
he didnt face Nunn, he didnt face Rocchigiani which have been talking points. He didnt want to travel to face the champ Michalczewski, he lost to Calzaghe and with Ottke where we know Roy was stopped by a common opponent. Not losing a close debatable fight but stopped


Now the court is over

 

Of course he did George.
You must be as taken in by Loudon as he is by himself.

Read what I wrote and pay some attention. I said at SMW. Get that?
Now you obviously dont know Ottkes whole career and I havent said Ottke had a better singular win than Ward at SMW, but overall a better resume.
You going to try and say Buster Douglas has a better HW resume than various other notable HWs due to a one off win? Think about it and then if you do know Ottkes entire SMW resume, you can come back and tell me how his SMW resume is less than Wards.
Thats you absolutely ethered when you try and give a sensible answer by pointing to a few signature wins rather than SMW resume
Chances are you are making a comment and never watched Ottkes career. Perhaps Loudon filled you in on it lol[/QUOTE]

 

Thats a very harsh post but an interesting one also

 

Is it obvious? Coz you'd be wrong in saying so.

I never said that you said that...

Then put your case forward.

No. That's not what a résumé is, and I never said it was. Don't put words in my mouth

He has 2 notable wins, and both of them wouldn't be notable on someone else's résumé. Ward has about 5.

Your chances are low.

Résumé is who you've beaten. Ward has beaten better people than Ottke. Tell me what's wrong about that.

Froch, Kessler, Dawson and Abraham > Johnson and Brewer

If your talking numbers then your still wrong. Ottke has 25 wins at SMW, Ward has 27.

 

After years of being on ESB, I cant be as bothered to reply as quickly especially when I know someone is commenting on something they know so little about.
As follows

Ok. So you watched Ottkes career. We will soon find out

No I didnt! Show me where I said Ottke has a better singular win than Ward? I didnt. I said I think Ottke has an overall better SMW resume than Ward

Fair enough

C Brewer the then IBF SMW champ for the title, beaten twice
G Johnson who went on to become the Ring & IBF LHW champ
S Branco who went on to become the WBA LHW champ
A Mundine who went on to become the 2 time WBA SMW champ
B Mitchell the then WBA SMW champ and 2 time WBA champ
R Reid the former WBC SMW champ and still world class
A Krajnc the former WBO MW champ (a smaller fighter)
M Larsen world class who went on to become European champ
R Markussen world class who went on to become European champ
T Tate beaten twice
D Starie
J Butler

Ottke made 21 title defences and was a winner of 22 world title fights at SMW

It was only Ottkes 13th fight when he won a world title

Example
If Johnson had of beaten Froch he would have been in the S6 finals and for Froch to be in the S6 finals with Ward he had to beat Johnson, which he did in a tough fight when Johnson was faded and boiled down , but Ottke beat prime Johnson at SMW some 10 and a half years previously

Now I think Wards SMW win over Kessler is arguably a greater win than any of Ottkes, even though I feel Kessler was faded and think his win over Froch may be considered greater, depending on how its viewed but overall I think Ottkes is the greater overall SMW resume on sheer volume and the amount of then top 10 SMWs that he beat and his reign as the top man for a period of time.
Of course you know about all the top 10 SMWs he beat because you know the era so well

Ottke has more then 2 and if you know his resume so well, would know this.
At SMW I would say Wards are Kessler and Froch. I dont think a boiled down Dawson who many felt lost to a faded Johnson was a significant SMW win or any other tbh

Like who at SMW.
Tell me just one greater SMW than Ottke that he beat?
faded Kessler
Froch who was not far removed from a loss and coming off a tough fight over a boiled down aged fighter Ottke had beaten when prime over a decade previously?

So you really dont have a clue and fell hook line and sinker like I knew you would.
Ottke beat Mitchell also. The 2 time WBA champ who had beaten Liles
So we have to look at SMW
Tell me how Abraham or Dawson were greater SMWs than Mitchell for example? Dawson has no real SMW resume. Tell me how Dawsons SMW resume is above Staries

Now Kessler and possibly Froch are arguably greater than any of Ottkes but after that I would put Mitchell on Ottkes resume next, then possibly Brewer, Reid, Mundine, Branco at SMW arguably above any other on Wards SMW resume
Tell me how you think otherwise.
Then add in so many of the top10 SMWs above who he beat before you get to Johnson at SMW, but thats the only name you seem to know probably because of Froch and the S6, which shows you werent watching Ottkes era

Not even sure what on earth you are going on about here but not all of Wards first 27 fights are listed as SMW bouts, so really not sure what you are talking about here?

 

Bailey,

I see you're now saying that Ottke has a better SMW resume, and not a better overall resume.

That's interesting, because last year you said he'd got a better OVERALL resume.

Have you now changed your mind?

Regarding your other post, thanks for the reply and I'll reply back to it soon.

 

I litterally have never said that you said that.

Some half decent wins, some wins that a clearly grasping at straws but the only one that would stand out as a top win on Ward's résumé. And that's Johnson.

And Artur Grigorian had 17 at LW. He's doesn't have a better résumé than Roberto Duran.
That's an irrelevant fact.

It's pretty much inarguable. There is no one on Ottke's Résumé who could beat any version of Mikkel Kessler

Why? He had his best win less than 6 months later

Than who? Johnson? Of course he's greater.
Ottke? Again of course he's greater.

Let me ask you a question here.
How many would he top 10 in the S6 era? By my count. 1. Ottke himself.

What? Calzhage was clearly the top guy.

No he really doesn't. Mitchell was stopped by Slapsie Calzhage in 2 after his SD loss to Ottke he was then after Calzhage stopped by Richard hall in 4.

Yes. Along with Abraham and Dawson, both or which would pummel Mitchell, like Calzhage and Hall did.

You just named them. Froch is clearly top 5 as is Kessler. Both are more worthy of a place there than Ottke.

Froch was a toughman who had some very good wins. He'd have trouble with anyone if it meant entertaining the fans. And his loss was a joke. There's a very clear case for the Kessler fight to go Froch's way.

I didn't say it and I won't coz it's not true. But I'd back both to KO Mitchell. Résumé comes off skill as well as résumé.

And is that something Abraham, Froch, Kessler or Dawson couldn't do?

And? He'd still run Ottke's Résumé like a gauntlet weight drained.

No. Coz it isn't. But it doesn't need to be. In his career who has Staries beat who's pfp as good as Dawson? If Prograis beat Lomachenko in his first fight moving up it'd be a better win than Ramirez's over Hooker regardless of the amount of fights Lomachenko would've had at the weight.

It's inarguable. They are both one hundred percent better wins than anything Ottke has. And both are very easy picks to be greater than Ottke himself

Litterally none of them last 10 rounds with Froch, Kessler, Dawson or Abraham.

I actually know Johnson from Tarver and Jones.

Typo. 26 fights.

 

Fair enough, must have misunderstood

What on earth are you on about?
There are many decent wins on Ottkes resume and I wouldnt have Johnson in the top 5 of them

You are talking about 2 completely different fighters with Duran and Grigorian compared to Ottke and Ward. Duran is considered a legend to many whereas Grigorian, who I think was a very good LW champion isnt going to be held in that regard, but with Ottke and Ward, they were both reigning SMW champs for a while who both unified, so that is where we are looking and you have to look at the wins at the time and where the fighters were. So you bringing up Grigorian and Duran is irrelevant but what I said with Ottke and Ward isnt because I have stated my opinion from the start to you that I think Ottke has a better overall SMW resume than Ward, which you are struggling to debate. the reason being is because Ottke has so many decent top 10 SMWs on his resume in world title fights as well as some wins over some decent undefeated SMWs. Ward has some good wins but not anywhere near as close to as many top 10 SMW wins.
Get it now?

If you see what I wrote earlier, you will see, that I have said that I think out of the 2, that that is the best win. That hasnt been a debate. I said that to you

Why do you keep bringing up Johnson? Is it because he is the only fighter you know on Ottkes resume?
I said I think it could be Froch but remember when Ward beat Froch, Frochs record was debatable win over Dirrell, loss to faded Kessler coming off a loss, Abraham coming off a loss, debatable win over faded Johnson.
When Ottke beat Mitchell, Mitchell had a win over Liles, a greater SMW than any Froch had beaten at that time. Now I still think its debatable that Froch could be the greater win but its debatable as Mitchell had beaten Liles, future champ Siaca twice, drawn with future 2 weight champ Girard.

Once again you have shown a massive lack of knowledge on this subject and we know that when faded and past best and boiled down, Johnson went in the SMW top 10 during the S6 era. Fact.
So I would guess, most of them would have been top 10 during that era. The S6 wasnt that strong an era at SMW and if you know the division would know that.
Consider how years after Ottke beat Branco, Branco nearly a decade later was a suitable title challenge for Pascal.
Larsen many years after being beaten by Ottke when faded was suitable to challenge for a title against Magee who went in some top 10s and ok to face Bute and Kessler during that era and who after losing to Ottke beat Haussler who went on to become a Kessler title defence many years later when faded.
Consider how Calzaghe had a tough fight with Brewer and Calzaghe is imo the most accomplished best SMW ever
So I would say several to most with those facts

He became the top man definitely, but Ottke was rated above him for a period of time. You would know this if you were following the era and fighters then.
Calzaghe was #1, then due to some of Ottkes more top 10 wins went above and later Calzaghe then went back above. I can post a link to that if you are in doubt, but as we know, you were watching back then so probably just had your memory jogged

I notice how you fail to mention that the Hall loss was years after, after he had come back and at a completely different weight. The Calzaghe loss was when Mitchell was coming off a loss. Its like how you rate Wards win over a drained Dawson, well then how can you rate so highly when Dawson was KOd in a round in his very next fight and by a fighter who had been stopped by a fighter who had lost to a fighter that an Ottke opponent stopped. Dawson then lost to Karpency. You see the double standards? You have to look at what fighters did in the division they were in and Mitchell has a far greater resume than Dawson at SMW. Fact
With that logic you could say Ottke stopped Mundine who took Kessler the distance

See above. Dawson wasnt doing anything at SMW. I would strongly favour Mitchell against Abraham. Do you think Abraham would have been beating Liles when he was being stopped by Steiglitz? Tell me after you have made this comment but what was Abrahams big SMW win in your opinion... This will be good.

Completely wrong. Ottke was a far greater SMW with a greater overall SMW resume than either of those even if he may not have as good a singular win. Just look at teh respective Johnson fights when Ottke was fighting Johnson over a decade previously and tell me how Froch was so much better. This will be another good one.

Wasnt a joke at all?
This is you trying to base an argument. It looked a clear win to Kessler for me.

Ok. So you agree Mitchell had a greater resume but have an opinion as to who you think would win. Well that is fair enough but the resume is a factual thing and your opinion is no more than that, but I know I wouldnt have favoured SMW Dawson or Abraham to have beaten Liles

We wont know, but we do know that Froch wasnt able to beat faded, eye problem Kessler coming off a loss and had looked to some that he had lost to Dirrell, so I am not convinced and cant see with how Abraham looked against Smith that he would have. Faded Kessler I think may have got passed him

So to give an example - non weight drained Dawson looked to some, to have lost to old G Johnson years after Ottke had beaten prime Johnson which wasnt even in Ottkes top 5 wins, but you think a drained Dawson would have been able to have got passed him when he was prime. Oh dear, you really have tied yourself up

P4P means little when we are focusing on a certain weight division. Starie is a greater SMW. Not P4P but SMW and that is where the fights was

I dont think it is inarguable even though I do rate the 2 as arguably greater wins.
You have to look at where the fighters were at the time. Kessler hadnt been overly active, had been exposed by an old Calzaghe. When he did fight it was noted in a report how his timing was off against Perdermo and he had vision problems when he faced Ward, yet Kessler suffering from vision problems coming off a loss was still enough to beat Froch. That was when Ward beat Kessler.
With Froch, Froch was coming off a debatable decision to faded G Johnson.

Which confirms what I wrote previously about you not knowing the fighters from Ottkes era

Well you may have done another typo because there was more than one fight listed at MW that I know of, which oh dear because if I go by your silly... What did you call it, numbers game, well that would make both numbers 25, but I really couldnt be bothered over something that ridiculous to check. I will let you do that and come back to me

 

I cant remember what I wrote last year and couldnt care less about a post from last year. This conversation has by your earlier comment, changed to SMW resume of Ward and Ottke and I happen to thing on sheer volume of top 10 opposition beaten at the weight that overall Ottkes SMW resume is greater even if I think Ward may have some better singular wins

 

bailey,

Agenda?

Really?

He looked like a completely different fighter in the first Tarver fight.

Typical deflection.

I've already stated that they were just examples and that he was 31 for the first Brewer fight.

There aren't any earlier examples as he didn't turn pro until he was 30 years old.

Would and could are two different words, and it doesn't seem very plausible based on the evidence to hand.

It was very weak on your part.

You have only given a reason because you were pushed. You didn't offer that reasoning the first time to the previous poster.

You basically said you'd have picked him because he beat a guy who went onto to beat Roy, which we both know is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

I said it to highlight how silly your point was. It was another example based upon the logic that you used.

Highly unlikely, unless Ottke had got the referee from the Reid fight assisting him.

Again, the odds would have been ridiculous.

We're talking about Roy in his prime against a guy who only scored a handful of stoppages in over 30 fights.

As above, Ottke out boxing a prime version of Roy wouldn't have been likely at all.

You weren't saying this last year.

Except it isn't at all logical.

This is just a nothing answer.

Answer the question properly.

And tell me how Collins would have beaten Roy.

No, it doesn't matter where he was ranked etc. We're only looking at his ability. Again, watch the fight to see how good he was. Then take into account that Roy had an injured hand.

Yes, Toney acknowledges that Tiberi beat him.

What bias?

Roy scored a near shutout.

I've already said I enjoy watching his 2 close fights with Toney, which were fought with a high level of skill. Yes, Dariusz did it the first time in 4, but that was after Roy had crushed him in 1. And?

I revert back to type?

It was a great win. To take a quality guy out in under a round with a lead uppercut?

If one of your favourite fighters had accomplished such a victory we'd never hear the end of it.

Give me something to work with.

Yes, to emphasise my point.

It's very relevant.

Reggie was a world class southpaw who was always ranked in the top 10 LHW's along with Roch.

Again, how likely is it that if Roy could beat Reggie with ease, followed by Harding, then followed by Tarver when past his best, that he he wouldn't have beaten Roch?

Roy was hurt and absolutely exhausted, but it was a clear win.

The court is over?

This is one of the weakest posts you've ever put forward.

The only reason I've replied to you, is because I don't like not replying back when people have made an effort. But this has been an absolute chore. An absolute ordeal. It's so tiresome debating you.

I'm the guy who uses logic.

I'm the one who uses relevant examples.

You're the guy who just spins stats in his favour. That's how you debate. There's nothing wrong with using stats if it's done in the right way, but you don't use them in the right way. Your reasoning for Ottke beating Roy is a perfect example of that. You never allow for any circumstances etc. You debate purely on the numbers.

Unless you come back and debate in a sensible manner, there's no point in taking this any further.

 

You can't remember?

Ha! Nobody is buying that.

You're just trying to save face.

 

are those zip codes in NY?

I doubt it, because most of the gang members there nowadays have rainbow hair and weigh 120.

 

I notice how you completely backed away when asked to produce against the grain predictions and have stayed in the hindsight hahahaha

 

You expect me to remember a random post from some time last year... You must have little to think about

You seemed rather beat up in your reply to the previous post and couldn't really offer much, failed on examples and didn't know what to do when called out on your tactics

 

Nobody beats a prime Roy Jones. He was a sick puppy