In which HW bouts was the nearest we came to having prime ATGs fighting each other?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Ken Ashcroft, May 10, 2019.



  1. Ken Ashcroft

    Ken Ashcroft Well-Known Member Full Member

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    It seems very rare that we have occasions where we have All time great heavyweights or even all time top 10 coming onto the scene at the same time with both coming into or near the peak together. Usually the trend is one follows the other but what would the closest we came to prime ATGs fighting each other?

    I think the closest is probably Muhammad Ali vs Joe Frazier 1 and Muhammad Ali vs George Foreman and even then there's the argument that Ali was past his best especially in 1974 against big George. Any other bouts that spring to mind?
     
  2. mark ant

    mark ant Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Ali was better in his second fight v Frazier and came close to matching the speed he had in the 60`s. Walcott gave Marciano hell in their first so he had quite a bit left and the same could be said for Charles.
     
  3. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

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    If you consider them both ATG's Corbett v Fitzsimmons? It really depends on who you think is an ATG? If you think Tommy Burns was one then him and Johnson. Same with Louis v Baer . Langford v Jeannette 1915?
     
  4. Seamus

    Seamus Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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  5. emallini

    emallini Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Was Patterson in his prime for the first Liston fight?
     
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  6. Ken Ashcroft

    Ken Ashcroft Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Like I said it's very rare with ATGs meeting with both at their best especially at heavyweight so might be best to settle for very good high profile champions as well.
     
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  7. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Well-Known Member Full Member

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    The closest is probably Frazier vs Mathis but Mathis wasnt an ATG. 2 undefeated prime Olympians for the vacant title is as good as it gets on paper.

    There are dozens of examples of 2 atgs fighting "near" their primes or 1 is and 1 isn't, or 1 guys "great" and the other is simply "good". But 2 atgs in their prime? Hard to say.

    The problem is usually you aren't going to have more than 1 ATG in their prime in the same division within a 3-5 year span (i say 3-5 years becsuse usually that's the longest time frame when a fighter is at their peak in the skill and athletic sense, if not shorter).
     
  8. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Fitzsimmons vs Corbett
    Walcott vs Marciano 1
    Bowe vs Holyfield 1
    Patterson vs Ingo 1
    Marciano vs Charles 1
    Schmeling vs Sharkey 1&2
    Johnson vs Burns
    Mercer vs Lewis
    Walcott vs Charles 1-3

    Probs a few others I'm missing. Either way, I regard all the fighters above as at their best condition for the fight.

    I'd also add:

    Ali vs Frazier (Ali only slightly past it)
    Ali vs Foreman (Ali only slightly past it)
    Louis vs Walcott (Louis only slightly past it)
    Liston vs Ali (Liston only slightly past it, honestly I don't think Liston was past it at all but that's the community consensus)

    I was also mulling over adding Ibeabuchi vs Tua but I dunno if I'd label them "ATGs", though they both rank highly on my H2H list. Same with Byrd's fights.
     
  9. mark ant

    mark ant Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Bowe never proved he was an all-time great and Holy was far better in the rematch, he had improved by that time.
     
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  10. mark ant

    mark ant Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Mercer was nowhere near an all-time great and Lewis wasn`t the finished article in a bout where he was pretty bad.
     
  11. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Now Walcott was prime vs. Marciano.... okay
     
  12. Jel

    Jel Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Arguably Foreman v Frazier 1. Frazier was unbeaten, undisputed champion. He may not have been as sharp as he had been a couple of years earlier but he was still young enough to be considered prime.
     
  13. Ken Ashcroft

    Ken Ashcroft Well-Known Member Full Member

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    The idea for this thread came from a comment from one of the Mike Tyson threads where someone, can't remember who, made a comment that their main issue with Tyson was that he never beat an ATG fighter that was in his prime and it just got me thinking how many heavyweight greats did even get to fight another fellow ATG, let alone beat another one? From the responses so far, I guess the answer is ... Not many at all.
     
  14. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Tua could be called a hall of famer based on sheer longevity and he did beat 4 champions, but Ibeabuchi hell no. Neither were atgs.

    Mercer being an ATG is very debatable.

    Walcott was an ATG and in terms of skill and technique he looked marvelous, but he was past his physical prime when he fought marciano at 38 and more than 68 fights with plenty of wars with Louis/Charles/etc. This isnt debatable.

    Ingo is definitely not an atg by any stretch of the imagination. He's on the same tier as Leon Spinx, a 1 hit wonder.

    Foreman vs Frazier should count, both were undefeated gold medalists and in their 20's. Although some people make a billion excuses.

    Liston wasn't in his best condition against Ali. This is well documented in multiple sources and interviews. He didn't take Ali serious and thought it would end in 2 rounds. That wasnt Ali's fault obviously but this is what reporters said.
     
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  15. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I think the point whoever said that was trying to make is that Tunney, Jefferies, Ali, holyfield, foreman, Lennox, joe Louis, and others were able to win legacy fights with fighters people would consider atgs even if the opponent wasnt in their best condition ever and tyson never did. He lost his legacy fights with holyfield and lewis and didnt avenge any losses.
     
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