In your eyes who won Ali-Frazier III?

That's an interesting prospect. Don't you think that the Ali of the rematch would have won that fight quite comfortably even if it was a 15 rounder?

 

:crybaby

 

Oh alright.

 

Interesting points. I was more throwing out the idea that, had the fight have continued, Ali might have collapsed as he did when he found out the result. I think it's certainly possible. Fainting isn't voluntary (as far as I know!). What if he'd collapsed at the start of the 15th and hadn't been able to continue? Frazier would have won. That would have shook up HW history some.

 

Ideally, the referee should not be a significant factor in how a match develops and unfolds, but that wasn't the case with Tony Perez in Ali-Frazier II, Zack Clayton in Kinshasa, or Carlos Padilla in Manila. Padilla continually slapped Muhammad's gloves off the back of Frazier's neck, taking away the draining tactic which Archie Moore explicitly identified as the key reason Foreman was worn down enough to be knocked out in Africa, and forcing Ali to punch his way to the win. While I have said that I believe Ali-Frazier II to be the one in their trilogy which would most resemble what might have happened between the two in 1969, it must also be acknowledged that the dreadful Perez allowed Ali to get away with an awful lot of chicanery in the clinches.

Over 15 rounds, their middle fight would never have been a stoppage win for either man with Perez as the referee, and perhaps even with Padilla officiating. The fact remains that Joe only got stopped in Manila, and may have been stopped even faster if Padilla had allowed Muhammad's neck yanking antics as Perez and Clayton did. I'll say this though. If Frazier wanted to beat Ali a second time, taking Muhammad on when he did was as unfavorable to him on each of the subsequent dates as could have been the case. Ali's grueling second fight with Norton was optimal preparation for that second Frazier bout (and of course he was never as light as 212 again).

 

You make some good points. I do think there's been some overstating of what Perez let Ali get away with (Joe was hardly a clean fighter and got away with stuff himself), but Padilla was more consistent in preventing Ali from holding. That's true.

 

I knew i could count on you.

 

I totally agree with this post. :good

 

Well that's just it. Ali didn't faint into unconsciousness when the result became known. Unassisted, he rose from his stool to his feet, raised his right arm aloft, again unassisted (unlike Holmes after Norton, who had to ask for help in physically raising and keeping his arms held up), and then sank to his right knee in exhaustion and relief, from where Don Dunphy conducted his interview. (When waiting for the decision after Norton, Holmes lay down flat on his back, not just taking a knee.) Muhammad's mental faculties were obviously clear and sharp at the end, and his replies made that apparent. (He gave his regards to several individuals important to him by name.)

I'm absolutely convinced he would never have collapsed while the competition was still underway. The previous two rounds were all his, and he had been knocking Joe backwards during round 14. For him, victory was clearly in sight, and the adrenaline, focus and determination to see it though after the now diminishing hell he'd suffered in the middle rounds would have gotten him by. He was clearly on the brink of a stoppage win, and the resulting surge of adrenaline would not have abated until he had no more need of it.

Once again, he rose from his stool without help, then raised his right arm aloft without help when Dundee made him aware that Futch had stopped it. That's considerably more than Robinson was physically able to make himself do against Maxim when round 14 came up. It's thus an absolute fact that he was able to head out to touch gloves with Joe for the final round if Futch had allowed it to continue. Even if Muhammad's left arm was completely dead by this stage, it was the right when Frazier was having trouble seeing, the same right Ali had enough strength to lift in that gesture of triumph.

He was intelligent and lucid in the interview with Dunphy immediately after. (Following Holmes-Norton, Cosell couldn't get an interview with Larry, although he tried desperately.) He only sank to a knee after fully integrating the fact that the combat was over. Standing up and raising his right arm on his own demonstrates that he still had the necessary strength to finish the job if round 15 had gotten under way. (When Shavers knocked out Tiger Williams at the end of ten, he didn't have the strength left to raise his arms and celebrate. He took a stool pretty quickly. Muhammad actually did have that little more left in the tank when Manila ended.)

Pacheco told Dunphy that Ali was actually all right, considering what had just happened. His presence in Muhammad's corner certainly had to be a tremendous aid and comfort to Ali in that situation. With Ferdie on his side of the ring, don't think for a moment that Muhammad wasn't fully aware of what serious trouble Joe was in.

 

But of course. I'll come out of the woodwork as fast as termites in a third rate brothel in Cartagena. And they do come out fast.

 

Great post:good:good

 

WOW,JR.Just how did you get tickets?I was in the 4th grade in St. Mary's school in Woodside,Queens and all of the boys were talking about it during the buildup.The atmosphere in the Garden that night must have raised everyone's adrenaline to a higher level.Great stuff as usual:good

 

Ali

 

As others have pointed up, the collapsing argument has no real basis. Ali also laid down on the canvas after knocking out Foreman, but I doubt you'd find anyone willing to argue that Foreman was one punch away from KOing Ali that night.

Also, Dundee mentioned a while ago on On the Ropes that the 'cut em off' line was never uttered. Even if it was, he also says that Ali would have sucked it up and went out there for the 15th. I certainly think he would have done that.

And as other people have mentioned, Ali was a vicious 15th round finisher in the second phase of his career. Futch made the right choice pulling Frazier out. If Ali unloaded like he did against Wepner or Shavers, I wince at what would have happened to Frazier.