Incredulous personal opinion - Kosta Tszyu isn't as great as Lupe Pintor

Yeah, I see no argument against this whatsoever. Kostya was more or less the finished article when he turned pro, it was just a case of adjusting to the longer distance and becoming savvy to the tricks of the pro game. He was definitely a more rounded fighter earlier doors for me with a more varied approach and physically sharper edge. Beating all the experienced fighters he did at such an early stage was impressive, even though some of them were either well past it or above their best weight.

Phillips was the type of dangerous, hard and fast straight puncher that he was just obviously vulnerable to and didn't come across much. I don't like how the loss gets explained away by some tbh. No doubt he took Vince lightly, but he was square in his prime and got his arse roundly beaten, end of.

Coming back to unify the titles was an excellent achievement with Judah being the high point, but his opponents were very average post-Phillips in an all-time context. Judah, Gonzalez, Urkal, Tackie, Hurtado, Mitchell, ancient JCC and old Leija were nothing special to say the least. I do love the Judah win though and the way he crushed Mitchell in the rematch. Very formidable fighter at his best and one who I really liked watching, just more of a very very good/excellent type than a genuine great, which is nothing to be sneezed at nor a particularly controversial opinion as far as I can see, though his staunchest defenders will no doubt disagree. He's always divided opinion on here as long as I can remember and on other forums where I've seen him discussed, which speaks for itself to a fair extent.

I'll weigh in on Lupe a bit later, it's an interesting debate....

 

The Gomez that Zarate lost to and the one Lupe beat are very different versions.

 

Tzyu is overrated.

You don't have to search for great 147 lb guys who could beat him like your example - Jose Napoles....there are plenty of 140 lb guys who were better than him peak for peak - Frankie Randall, Meldrick Taylor, JC Chavez, Oscar Dela Hoya, Pernell Whitaker, arguably even Roger Mayweather and Vince Phillips.

That said, I am not sure Pintor was a better fighter than Tzyu.

He was gifted the decision against Zarate.

He did put up a tremendous fight losing to Gomez. I think Gomez was a little past his best at that point.

The upset of Juan Meza to win a second world title when he was past prime,was impressive. He was a huge underdog, there. KO Mag. said at the time, "Juan Meza couldn't even to the probable. Lupe Pintor did the nearly impossible."

Pintor had a great left hook and average right hand, average defense. Like Tzyu, he was very physically strong. He probably had a better chin than Tzyu. It's a tough call.

 

Fuentes was dangerous. He had a bad habit of getting caught cold in the early rounds, though. He suffered several early ko's before Kostya got to him. The others were way past it. Laporte could still fight a bit, but was too far above his best fighting weight.

 

Kosta Tszyu is a little over rated in my opinion. He was an over achiever type, with good but not great skills who was born at the right time, beating JC Chavez when he was 38 ( Kosta 8 years younger )

Kosta also beat Jessie James Leija, when he was 36.

36 or 38 is very old for a lower weight fighter.

His win over Zab Judah when it happened was impressive, but Judah was the opposite of Tszyu, an under achiever who lost often vs the best.

 

Both fighters were great. Tszyu did have some big names on his resume, but for the most part
they were past their prime. Bramble looks good, but he was 9 years past his wins over Mancini. JC Chavez
looks like an all time win, but JCC was WAY past his prime and had only a couple more fights before packing it in.
Sharmba Mitchell was another guy nearly finished in his career.

I think Tszyu's record has a bit of padding on it.

 

According to whom? This statement is meaningless. MaxBoxing puts him at #4 all time Jr. Welter. That seems reasonable.

Kostya never fought at 147.

Outside of JCC (who he demolished in faded form), I don't see the argument. Pernell, great as he was, fought all of one fight at 140. I am certainly not picking Randall, Meldrick, May or DLH over him. Phillips beat him in a learning expericence but was certainly not greater over his career and proved to be quite beatable. Not sure I would be betting on Vince in a rematch.

 

If nothing else, this thread surely respresents a first - a comparison between Mexican bantamweight/super bantam Pintor and Australian/Russian light welterweight Tzsyu. For that, Russell, I applaud you, sir.

 

I've only watched the Zarate-Pintor fight once and had Zarate winning, but not by much. Which was surprising to me as I'd read about it before and had read that it was a terrible robbery. Will have to watch again at some point and reset my expectations to zero.

I was always mightily impressed by Pintor's showing against Gomez as I thought he fought brilliantly off the ropes. Gomez still had plenty left at that point, but I agree that he probably wasn't as good then as when he beat Zarate. But Zarate was terrible in that fight, but Gomez deserves the credit for that.

I remember reading about Tszyu before I saw him fight. He was at world title level by about his 10th or 11th fight and kicked Jake Rodriguez's behind for his title win. Can't look past his loss to Phillips though but in terms of his work at 140, he has to be top 5 in that division's history.

Who was better? I'm going to cop out and say... about even?

 

Lupe lost the fight late...but hung tough.

 

No interest in talking skills? I just don't see how Pintor was more skillful or well-rounded than Tszyu.

 

Very good point. Of course, he lost but still fought a great fight. I only wish Pintor had met Jeff Chandler. If he'd beaten him, he'd be in the conversation as one of the greatest 118 pounders ever.

 

A most compelling thread Russell...and I thought that I had an instant reply,.......but I don't...not yet anyway.