Ingemar Johannson gives Cleveland Big Cat Williams A Title Shot In 1959.

Then we agree on what we see, but I disagree that it's as impressive as you and others think. According to reports, Valdes had comparable success against Liston. Liston had good defense, but he could be hit and rocked.

Maybe I have too high standards, but I don't give huge props to fighter that didn't last 6 rounds in two fights combined.

 

In the first fight Williams landed a good punch before Liston got into the fight; I'm guessing that was the plan. It was a good shot but Liston took it well.
In the second fight, the shot Williams landed was his undoing because he got excited and started trading and it cost him. It looks to me like a potshot was his only real chance in either fight. It reflects well on Sonny that he was so generous in his comments about Williams.
Something to keep in mind for future mythical matchmaking...when Williams throws his hook, he really brings it. But in the effort his right hand gets miles away from where it should be. Don't pick him over other left hookers.

 

I think that what is skewing both side of the Williams argument is the fact that, styles wise, Sonny was made for Williams. Unfortunatedly for him, the reverse was also true. To stand in front of either and trade was a dangerous tactic. Sonny, however, had more strings to his bow.

 

What of Floyd though, who didn't even last a full round either time?

 

Not many fighters would be able to stay in front of Liston for long. It's also visible how much better boxer Liston was in these exchanges, he looks much more controlled and patient.

 

See, that's what I think. Liston-Williams and other matchups like it are really those fights where it all depends on who's tougher, who's stronger, and who hits first. Surprisingly though, Liston and Williams were able to give us two chess matches combined with the crowd-pleasing slugfest rolled up to make two immortal heavyweight fights.

 

I don't give Floyd any credit for his fights with Liston, but Floyd proved his value in other fights (which can't be said about Williams).

Peralta lasted much longer against Foreman than Frazier, but nobody says that he was better than Joe. It's not that easy and in the end, Williams (although in much better style) didn't have much better results than Patterson against Sonny.

 

I agree. I think Williams was one of those fighters who had a problem with tenseness. Williams looks sharp in the Liston fights, but he's not relaxed enough. He looks like he'd get sore if he was in there for a couple more rounds.

 

I agree here as well. I was just wondering what you'd say. I do think Williams was more made for Liston than Patterson though. Williams was very similar to Liston in many ways, and a much stronger and wilder fighter whose style was made for that kind of fighting. I don't think Floyd can handle those early rapid-fire attacks like that.

 

Well, that's what differentiates good fighter from great fighter. Williams certainly was good, powerful and dangerous but he wasn't all-timer. I find it strange that he has so many fans on this forum, cause most powerful but limited hitters don't have his reputation here.

 

True, he accomplished a lot, I just really enjoy watching him fight, and I really liked his style. He was a very skilled fighter.

 

Sonny said ,Williams hits like me but don't take it as well.

 

Actually, when comparing accounts, there is good reason to believe that Williams may have hit even harder than Liston. Foreman said so, and he clearly knew a thing or two of power. Also, Machen eluded Liston all nite and only appeared in slight trouble once early in the fight that he probably won. Machen and Williams battled to a draw. But I am getting into the discussion again, and I don't really want to.

 

I've read a couple times in this thread that Floyd Patterson was a great Heavyweight. Or a great Heavyweight champion.

That's really being generous. The only casualty is the word great...and the true greats.

 

If the Big Cat hits Ingo with what he hit Liston with Ingo is toast,,, I'd favor Patterson over Williams but wouldn't go near that fight with any dollar bets.