Ingemar Johansen vs Cleveland Williams

Well for one, the guy says Machen lost his fire. That's clearly not true. One doesn't beat 5 ring rated contenders in a row without fire.

Also, I'm about 11 minutes into the video and he said Folley secured a close SD over Machen in the rematch. It wasn't split, nor particularly close.

 

Sharkey at his best as posted recently was a fine defensive fighter and quite skillful. Even a guy like Braddock would be in the game with his own fine right hand and skills. Johannson just isn't that great. Sure, he'd get the Bingo on the odd guy but heaps would leave him prone too as he was hardly that durable himself.

 

I agree. He wasn't durable, nor particularly quick at all. Just not a well rounded fighter. All he really had was that right.

I always wondered how a match up with Valdez would've went. Would've told us a lot more about Ingo's ability.

 

Whoever got in first you'd think. We just don't have much to go on as he only ever fought three ranked guys and one of those most well versed fans wouldn't even know. London certainly had him.

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I agree. I'd narrowly favor Ingo, but it could just as easily go the other way.

Yeah this was a really bad look, which his fans try to avoid because they don't want to acknowledge the guy they're hyping up as a H2H monster, was knocked down and retired in his prime by.... Brian London.

If Williams as much as got briefly stunned by London, we'd never hear the end of it from Chok and Bah Lan oops! I mean HobGob.

 

Imagine if he had lost to London. Or a Sylvester Jones or Jack O'Halloran.

 

Jeffries was a far greater HW than Ingo based on what they achieved in their own eras. Admittedly H2H may not be as clear.

I rank Charles, Tunney, Schmeling, Patterson, Baer and JJW higher too, based on achievements. I'd also take them all over Ingo, best night vs best night.

Gun to my head I'd probably take Sharkey on their respective best nights over Ingo, whilst conceding that Jack was very inconsistent.

 

I didn’t say it was anything to be ashamed of. I’m a big fan of Harold actually…but he rightly doesn’t come in for much criticism so you wouldn’t know. Machen was a great contender. Always good value. I think Ingo beat the best version of Machen though. But he was always good. Williams did well to take Machen so close actually. Very surprising.

 

I’m not sure this is fair. The first knockdown against Floyd in the rematch was a huge blow. A real hammer. Swept ingo clean off his feet…but he got up. I don’t think a lot of guys could have gotten up from that particular Gazelle Punch. It had landed so sweetly. And it would have been better for Ingo had he not gotten up…because the second gazelle punch he got was just as good and left him fully unconscious and twitching. This was Floyd’s night and he was never better and always called this his best ever performance. So whilst this double knockdown undoubtedly effected Ingos future punch resistance the fact he wasn’t out cold from the first knockdown shows me Ingo wasn’t that chinny to begin with.

If Ingo wasn’t fast or clever enough to set up the hammer of Thor I don’t know what to say.

 

Williams was 20 years old when he lost to Jones and 38 when he lost to O Halloran.
Johansson was 30 when Brian London stiffened him,and he didnt have a 357 magnum bullet in his belly,and had full mobility.
You are an excellent tag partner for Choklab!

 

Mile Dokes stopped Mike Weaver in the 1st rd.
In the rematch Dokes was lucky to get a draw.
The press all though he lost.

• Unofficial AP scorecard: 143-142 Weaver
• Unofficial UPI scorecard: 144-142 Weaver
• Unofficial L.A. Times scorecard: 143-142 Weaver

Joey Maxim had no difficulty outpointing Curtiss Sheppard twice , in their third meeting Sheppard caught him with a big right and he never recovered, being stopped in the first round ,

• Johansson refused to honour the rematch clause with Machen,maybe he thought he had caught Machen cold? It happens.

 

Johnson was 32 and the reigning Lhvy Champ stop implying he was ready for the old folks home,its not only dishonest, its absurd.
Weaver v Dokes 1 = Dokes winner 1 rd ko
Waever v Dokes 2=Dokes lucky to get a draw !

 

Because he wanted to have a shot at the title. Can hardly blame him for that. From what I've read about it, the rematch clause was added shortly before the fight under the threat of Machen pulling out. That's why the clause was held to have been signed under duress. But now we're talking contract law. If he could avoid the rematch, it's natural to do so as the alternative of fighting Patterson was so much better.

As for the bullet, you can always make that excuse. Just as you can point to the fact that it was Ingo's last fight. In the end Ingo won fair and square so there is really no debate here.

That Williams could not beat Machen is only due to himself lacking the ability. Had Ingo lacked the ability to beat Machen, he might never have had a shot at the title but he made his chances count when they were presented. That's what differentiates champs from mere contenders.

 

I'd prefer to back fill him.

 

So Machen was never the same after losing to Ingo,but Williams was okay after being shot,having some of his intestine removed and losing full mobility in one leg?
"According to the police report Williams resisted arrest, and the officer's .357 magnum revolver went off during an ensuing struggle, hitting Williams in the stomach and lodging in his right hip. Williams underwent four operations over the subsequent seven months to address injuries to his colon and right kidney. The right kidney ultimately had to be removed in June 1965. Doctors could not extract the bullet, which had broken his right hip joint and caused partial paralysis of some of the hip's muscles, over 10 feet (3.0 m) of his small intestine had to be removed, and nerve damage affected his left leg above the knee and caused it to atrophy as a result."
That's some excuse!
I dont think you are Bah Lance,I think you are Choklab with a double account! lol