Ingemar Johansen vs Cleveland Williams

Johansson beat the better competition.

He took out a younger and probably better Machen in one while Williams went to a draw.

He took out Patterson in their first fight.

I just don't see Williams' victory over Terrell as proving that much. Terrell had fought only one name fighter, Wayne Bethea, and had lost to him. Terrell's claim to be WBA champion doesn't mean much to me given that he won it from Machen who was coming off a bad loss to Patterson, then defended it against the easy to outbox Chuvalo and the past it Doug Jones. He would then lose not only to Ali, but to Thad Spencer and Manuel Ramos.

I like Johansson as simply the better, more proven, fighter.

*This Liston-Johansson fight seems to have been a bit of newspaper hype. There was a long article in Sports Illustrated in 1962 about Johansson getting to view films of Liston for apparently the first time just before the Patterson fight. The SI reporter brought them to him if I remember correctly. Johansson to that point had not seen Liston fight. I think Johansson would have scouted Liston if there was any real chance of him fighting him.

** I don't see Liston wanting the fight prior to taking on Patterson because there certainly was a chance of Johansson getting on his bicycle and staying away for the whole fight only to win a home-town decision. Stranger things have happened.

 

The stage fright source comes from many places but gets a mention in this article that janitor posted.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/obituary-cleveland-williams-1119362.html

And also in a sort a illustrated article:

"I've got a message from beyond," said Cleveland Williams, who, at 205 pounds, is big enough to know better. "I'm not well enough to fight." Four doctors told him he was, but Williams was listening to his voices in Wales in July and would not fight Dick Richardson. "He publicly disgraced himself," says Cus D'Amato. "He hadn't the decency to pretend he wasn't frightened, to keep within the rules of our business. But all terribly scared people have a certain amount of skill." Williams, 24, of Houston, is a bad actor, but he does have a noteworthy skill; he is a first-rate puncher with both hands, and, as a consequence, has knocked out 33 opponents in 40 fights while losing but twice. In the main, he has fought those whom he can hit and who are not good hitters (busted valises with names like Baby Booze and Graveyard Walters) and has avoided those who can take it and not quit; and, in fairness, he has been avoided, too; there is no advantage in taking on a Williams. But instead of gaining confidence and ability as the quality of the opposition was stepped up, Williams has never relinquished his faith in his punching. Almost paradoxically, then, his strength has become his weakness; if he cannot knock the man out early he may get discouraged, frustrated and listless."


I think it is a huge leap of faith to lean toward Williams against ingo, a proven fighter. Big cat has no signature wins against curent fighters. Nothing that warrants an automatic title shot. A draw with machen? Is that it?

Tommy hurricane Jackson was a much better contender than Williams.

 

Williams would have flattened hurricane jackson in 1-2 rounds like nino valdes did

 

I would not be so sure. Jackson took on enough good fighters to lose to guys like valdes and Patterson but to also beat men like Ezzard Charles, Rex Layne, Clarence Henry, Dan Bucceroni, Bob Baker. You just cant say that about Williams.

Williams lost to Satterfeild, Liston, chuvalo, Terrell but beat .....(drum roll) ......Alex miteff.

That's it!

If the Williams loss at 20 years old to satterfeild "dosnt count" why should Terrells loss to Williams?

 

One obvious thing people tend to overlook about Johansen is how light on his feet and mobile he was. He really moved well, and generally kept his guard high and tight till it was time to pounce. Williams, tho mobile in his prime, liked a wider more set tance and often kept his left low. I see the combination of these two distinctions being detrimental to Williams.

But both guys could bang so nothing is for sure.

 

I think Williams was game enough to make it exciting while it lasted. I think Williams was game enough to get up a few times at least.

 

Yup. Williams never got to the top and tends to be a bit overrated, but he was still a very formidable heavyweight. This would have been a really good scrap while it lasted.

 

Perhaps by the time wilder fought them but at least they had once been something. Some of Williams guys were wrestlers or truckers. Baby booze, graveyard Walters, bubba Willis, Ben black, James Wiley...

Cleveland beat better guys too like Billy Daniels and the killer curley Lee (who drowned all four of his kids in a bath after killing his brother in law and attacking his wife with a crow bar. Best thing Williams did was knock that ******* out.) But they were hardly world class or even Audley Harrison level.

 

Toss up fight. I would favor Ingo and for sure someone is getting knocked the **** out.

 

Look, Ingo has the bigger wins and he was murder with the right but I have always felt the Machen fight was a fluke, Ingo was a poorly conditioned fighter with a weak chin, questionable commitment , ect ... Williams was much faster and a better two handed puncher but who knows on this one ... ?

 

I'm not sure I find Williams much, if at all, faster. Ingo is good at punching while moving or on his toes. Williams likes to set his hips and unload. Williams may appear more flashy when he fires but he needs to get a certain place and balance to unload.

And I'm not sure I would be talking about Ingo's supposedly weak chin when Williams is to be his opponents. That guy was more familiar with the canvas than Van Gogh.

 

Williams handspeed is clearly faster than johanssons.

 

Johansson in his prime was damm near knocked out by featherfisted Brian London.

"The 12 round bout, billed as another step in Ingemar Johansson's march to a return shot at the heavyweight title, ended with Johansson staggering to his feet, his eyes glassy and his arms hanging at his side. Johansson, 200, apparently had the better of the dull fight until the final minute. He concentrated on his left jab to pile up points, and never landed his famous right hand. Brian London, 206, carried the fight but he could not land a solid punch until the final seconds when he stunned Johansson with a left and crashed him to the canvas with the right. The count had reached four and Johansson had just lurched to his feet when the bell rang. Referee Andrew Smythe of Ireland, the sole judge, awarded the fight to Johansson." -Associated Press


I would have stopped the fight if the bell had not saved Johansson. He could not have continued." -Referee Andrew Smythe

 

Williams only lost in his prime to Liston 2x, and going 1-1 with Ernie Terrell(The controversial loss in which most had Williams winning)

 

What really is hand speed? Just the speed of the punch from shoulder to target?

If it takes Williams an extra beat to set into his preferred stance doesn't that add to the time it takes for his punches to get to their target? Once he pulls the trigger he can be pretty fast. But watch him, even in his prime, he likes to get his legs pretty wide and set, which is not only a tell but takes time. Johannson can jab coming in or on the retreat, on his toes or flat footed. He's just a more versatile and better balanced puncher. And thus, at his best, he gets his punches off quicker.

Case in point would be Ingo's effort against the lightning fast Patterson. Ingo's jab was pestering him with its speed, consistency and awkwardness. And it was landing first. Not really a power jab but it's timing and flustering factor sets up his right hand very well.