Ingemar Johansen vs Cleveland Williams

This was Johansson's last fight, it was hardly ingo's prime! Brian London was not that feather fisted he knocked out Roger Ritcher quicker than Liston did.

Ingo's punch resistance took a knock after the Patterson fights. That was a serious head trauma he got in the second fight. He could never have hoped to be the same....perhaps Williams was never the same after Satterfeild brutalized him?

The unbeaten version of ingo was some fighter. Fitter and pinpoint timing. That version beat fighters who had not been knocked out before. Williams was never proven at top class. No signature wins to draw from at all.

 

That was a throw away comment that even Liston did not take seriously otherwise he would have fought Terrell. Ernie was the next guy who beat Williams and Sonny was champion when it happened.

Sonny was only saying Williams gave me a handfull and he has not fought many rated guys, I wonder if anyone else with a rating can beat him? Then one did and it was forgotten.

 

Another way of saying the exact same thing is to say that Williams three losing fights to Liston and Terrell were the ONLY fights Williams had with current rated fighters....in his prime. Three fights with rated fighters and he lost all of them.

Altogether Williams went 0-4-1 with world class fighters when they were currently regarded as such.

 

Not true Chokelab. Stop making **** up. Billy Daniels and Alex Miteff were both Top 10 ranked by Ring Magazine when Williams beat them. Williams also should have gotten the nod over top 10 ranked Eddie Machen, and knocked out future WBA champion Ernie Terrell.

 

The punch resistance stuff is crap .. great fighters come back .. Joe Louis did. Lennox Lewis did. Jack Johnson did. The list goes on and on .. Ingo was a soft fighter with a soft chin.

 

Anytime you have close fights you can make that argument. He could also just as easily have been 1-2 as 1-1-1 though.

"Machen and Terrell"

Manuel Ramos went 2-0 against this pair. I know everyone will point out that Machen had gone back. Fair enough. But Terrell might actually have been a better fighter at an experienced 28 when he fought Ramos versus a 23 year old who had yet to beat a top man and was unranked in 1962.

 

I think this is a bit facile.

Johansson suffered an unusually brutal KO and was out for several minutes. He probably suffered a concussion.

He clearly was not as vulnerable to punches before the second Patterson fight as he was afterward. And that this KO might haved affected his punch resistance is not really a far-out possibility.

"soft fighter"

Despite his playboy rep, Johansson seems to have been often a serious trainer who also indulged in hard sideline activities such as mountain climbing and rowing.

I see no reason, for example, to doubt his stamina. Can you point to a fight in which his stamina clearly failed him?

"soft chin"

He was actually only stopped by Patterson, a heavyweight champion. Schmeling, in contrast, was blown away by Gypsy Daniels in one.

 

Billy Daniels was one of Williams better wins. Billy gave ALi a good fight when he was unbeaten. If Daniels (a part time boxer who was a barber in his day job) was rated against Williams I apologise but the only rating I can find for Daniels was November 1962, he fought Williams in March 1963. The only recognisable heavyweight Daniels beat by then was Mike dejohn who was losing fights.

Miteff? Alex was a quality journeyman, a tough step up guy for prospects. The year miteff fought Williams he went 2-5 and was stopped four times in good class. The year before Alex racked up two losses and three wins. The year before miteff was 3-3.

I can't find a rating for Miteff for the month he fought Williams. on the form of the three previous years I can imagine Alex won a rating when he beat a rated fighter and lost that rating when he got beat. He fought in good class so it's possible Alex could be rated briefly within a year he lost fights..... but since miteff was coming off a loss to George Chuvalo I have a feeling the month Alex fought Williams Chuvalo had his rating.

I therefore conclude that Daniels and miteff are not signature wins over world beaters.

 

Again, many , many fighters came back from brutal KO's .. look at Charles vs Walcott ... all excuses. Other than Patterson and Machen, who else did he even fight ?

 

I think Charles was on his feet at "eleven" or so. So was Walcott against Marciano (although his career was about over).

Johansson simply suffered a much more brutal KO and it is hard to know how this could affect him. I have read that he retired in 1963 on the advice of a neurologist.

"Other than Patterson and Machen, who else did he even fight."

Good point, although the other fellows he was fighting for the most part were as good, and even better, than the fellows Williams was fighting, or at least able to defeat. The issue on this thread is Johansson as opposed to Williams.

And Patterson and Machen were the two highest rated heavyweights in the world when Johansson fought them. These are the sort of victories which make one a champion.

 

I have heard this also. In fact in his book Arthur Mercante said it was one of the worst knock outs he had supervised. It was his first heavyweight title fight and he thought ingo was dead. According to Mercante, Howard Cossell even called up to him from his ringside seat as Arthur was assisting the unconscious Johansson in the ring "Arthur, is he dead?". It was the second of two very heavy knock downs and ingo was cold before his head bounced and his foot trembled.

That kind of impact would damage anyone.

 

"Erskine and London"

Well, he did defeat Henry Cooper before Cooper got rolling and when Cooper was in losing streak and not a rated fighter.

Still, Cooper was rated 7 times from 1958 to 1970, was the heavyweight champion of the British Empire and Europe, and over the course of his career was certainly a better fighter than anyone Williams defeated other than Terrell (and Williams got him before he was rated).

It is probably debatable because of when Cooper lost to Ingo, but I would rate Cooper a better scalp than such as Miteff and Daniels.